144 replies to this topic

[Rail Paul]

Many years ago, people argued that if men could be drafted at age 18, they should be allowed to drink at age 18. The draft went away (sort of) but the drinking age didn't change from 21.

BryanZ, do you know what the drinking ages might be in other countries, and what studies exist with regard to alcohol consumption, age, driving privileges, etc?

My recollection is of young people, perhaps teenagers, drinking responsibly in Irish country pubs, and some French bistros. I have no idea of what the law permits.

[omnivorette]

This gets into the slippery slope of where you draw the line. I do think some kind of mandated drinking age is a good thing; I just find 21 to be much too old.

With all due respect, that's because you're 20 years old. 21 is not "much too old." I know I'm generalizing here, but 21 is a kid. 21 is still a student in many cases. 21 didn't have to support themselves yet or support other people or pay their own way, fully, in the world. And if some do, it's still only been for a short time. And the statistics for alcohol-related deaths involving 18 to 21 year olds are sobering (you should pardon the expression). Perhaps if the alcohol-related deaths and accidents were to decline in that age group, I'd agree with you. But in fact the drinking age went UP from 18 because of the alcohol-related harm 18 to 21 year olds do to themselves and to others. I don't trust an 18 to 21 year old to moderate their alcohol intake and then decide if they're sober enough to get behind the wheel. I want their access to alcohol limited. Of course some of them will get it somehow - but that doesn't mean that we as a society shouldn"t do what we can to limit their access. We should.


eta: of course there are 18 to 21 year olds who are responsible drinkers. I was. I'm sure you are Bryan. But the law has to exist to protect the majority from the majority.

[omnivorette]

Many years ago, people argued that if men could be drafted at age 18, they should be allowed to drink at age 18. The draft went away (sort of) but the drinking age didn't change from 21.

When I was 18, the drinking age was 18. Now it's 21.

[balex]

Some global perspective might help. Most other countries have much lower ages for drinking; or staggered depending on the type of alcohol involved.
In the UK it is 18, but in restaurants my children, on occasion, have half a glass of sweet wine or champagne, (aged 12 and 16). This has never been a problem. In France it is 16, and children often drink wine with their parents at home and in restaurants below that age.

Checking the facts here (World drinking ages), it seems that the US is the only country in the world with such a view. There are reasons why this is the case, that we probably can't discuss here, but it is naive to treat it as a rational response to a paticular problem.

[Orik]

Many years ago, people argued that if men could be drafted at age 18, they should be allowed to drink at age 18. The draft went away (sort of) but the drinking age didn't change from 21.

BryanZ, do you know what the drinking ages might be in other countries, and what studies exist with regard to alcohol consumption, age, driving privileges, etc?

My recollection is of young people, perhaps teenagers, drinking responsibly in Irish country pubs, and some French bistros. I have no idea of what the law permits.

When I was first in Germany the legal age was 16. In Israel it was always 18, but there was practically no enforcement (and very little consumption) until the Russians came. Surprisingly, in both countries, people grow up to support themselves and others. We can also mention Canada.

The statistics for alcohol related deaths in 18 to 21 year olds are indeed unfortunate, but all they do is indicate what a colossal failure the current prohibitionist approach is, and has always been.

In any event, practically all alcohol related deaths among young people are the result of binge drinking. I don't see how these are relevant to a restaurant serving someone a glass of wine. Also, 75% of deaths occur in males and 72% of deaths occur in people over 35, so clearly men over 35 should be your target group. (of course I'm only saying this because I'm 34 and because I actually have data to support it http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5337a2.htm)

[yvonne johnson]

If one is old enough to vote in the US, then it seems only right that one be allowed to drink like other adults.

Omni, are you really advocating for only "dry" parties etc for university students who are under 21? Would you have settled for that in your day?

[Behemoth]

In Germany the drinking age is 16 for beer and wine, and 18 for hard liquor. I rarely meet German college students who can't handle their drink, they have usually gotten the stupid behavior out of their system while still in high school, while they are still living with their parents. American college students puking in front of Hofbrauehaus, however, is something of a common sight around here.

I've always thought 21 is a dumb drinking age, since half of one's peers on a college campus are allowed to drink, and the other half not. It almost demands that the law be broken, and come to think of it, I don't know anybody my age who waited until that age to have their first drink.

I agree with Yvonne, if you are old enough to vote (and drive and own a gun for god's sake) then you are certainly old enough to drink.

Lebanon is 18 as well.

[omnivorette]

I've never been much of a drinker, so it wouldn't have bothered me personally. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been drunk in my life.

I don't know what the solution is - but I do know that I don't want American 18 to 21 year olds to have unlimited access to booze.

I don't understand this "if you are old enough to vote then you are old enough to drink" thing. The two things are not related. An 18 year old voting doesn't put another driver's life in immediate danger. But an 18 year old full of booze certainly does.

Obviously I know that 18 to 21 year olds (and 16 and 17 year olds for that matter) find ways to obtain booze. But that doesn't mean we should make it even easier to do so.

[Behemoth]

I hear a lot of "gut feeling" opinions on this issue. I would be very interested in seeing some actual numbers.

For example, posner blog seems to imply that alcohol-related auto deaths are a good deal higher in the US than in Germany. DUI laws are extremely strict in Germany.

[flyfish]

We can also mention Canada.

Just to clarify, the link balex posted is slightly misleading in suggesting that the legal drinking age is 18 in most of Canada. It is 19 in most jurisdictions and 18 only in Alberta, Manitoba and Québec. It was reduced from 21 in many places in the early 70s, but later in the 70s a number of provinces raised the drinking age up to 19 from 18. Also about that time anti-drinking and driving enforcement programs began to be commonplace: Ontario's R.I.D.E. Program (Reduce Impaired Driving Everywhere) originated in 1977 as a community policing effort to address public concern about drinking and driving. This sort of thing is rather effective with good publicity coupled with stiff penalties for offenders. It has really changed social behaviour around drinking and driving (I am a designated driver tonight).

Appropriate age bans are important, but alcohol use education is a very important factor. As others have said, learning about drinking in the home and by example can lead to very responsible behaviour at an early age (or some very bad behaviour). I have a nephew who was permitted a glass of wine with dinner since he was about 14. By the time he graduated high school alcohol in moderation was a normal part of his life, so he thinks that sitting around getting drunk with your buddies (as some of his are now interested in doing) is lame and boring.

What are your jurisdiction's alcohol education programs like? Also, surveys among Canadian youth have shown that cigarette smoking and alcohol use/binge drinking are statistically related:
http://www.ccsa.ca/C...ent_Statistics/
What are your jurisidiction's smoking laws and anti-smoking programs like?

[Leslie]

Hubby says the legal drinking age (for all alcohol and bars) in his canton of Switzerland is after Confirmation, (after 9th grade, about age 15). He says what typically happens is the kids get drunk once, see how stupid it is, and of course are too young to drive as age for driving is 18. So by the time they reach age 18, and can drive, they know how to deal with alcohol.

[omnivorette]

Eyebrows was just saying that maybe the driving age should be increased to 18 in the U.S. Not a bad idea.

Although...I've spent some time in Switzerland over the last few years....there are plenty of drunk under-21s around. Like every night on the Niederdof in Zurich, for example. But I don't think it's a big problem in Switzerland.

[Leslie]

Eyebrows was just saying that maybe the driving age should be increased to 18 in the U.S. Not a bad idea.

Although...I've spent some time in Switzerland over the last few years....there are plenty of drunk under-21s around. Like every night on the Niederdof in Zurich, for example. But I don't think it's a big problem in Switzerland.

An interesting side note is virtually every family in Switzerland also has guns in their home and ammunition (the annual service in the army for all men does not let them go home w/o ammunition, so the country can mobilize quickly within hours, if necessary), and shooting is also the national sport (it's compulsary to shoot the program during the year)... and yet Switzerland also does not seem to have much of a problem with misuse of guns/accidents. A cultural difference from the US with both drinking and guns.

[omnivorette]

I think men are sent home with their guns, and the bullets are given separately in a sealed container, and you can't open the bullets container without authorization or a national emergency. And the system seems to work.

The Swiss tend to be an obedient lot.

eta: I agree that cultural differences play a huge role in these issues. Also, maybe it's significant that the US is a fairly young country.

[mongo_jones]

i don't know why 21 is being treated as some sort of magic number. the legal age for drinking in india is officially 25. just because legal systems choose particular numbers doesn't mean that they make sense.