605 replies to this topic

[ulterior epicure]

Someone (was it Wells or Sifton) gave this place two stars?

Wait. That was unfair. I've only been once. And I'm sure the NYT restaurant critic went multiple times, and had a better basis for evaluation. Disclaimer made.

[Sneakeater]

I THINK we're sure they did.

Isn't that culture largely working class/blue collar? Did they grow up working class? If not, does that make them appropriative? The rabbit hole goes deep. (Feel free to stop this at any time.)

I THINK they did.

That's how they presented themselves.

[Adrian]

u.e: this video makes it pretty clear what they're trying to do (in am exceedingly limited way, obviously). They're trying to be referential and witty, I'm down with that (the tongue and cheek Judaism reminds me a lot of some of my best friends in NYC).

Sneak: Do not take this line of inquiry seriously.

[ulterior epicure]

As for the 2.0 tasting menu, you're right. The old tasting menu was a takeoff on "red sauce". Obviously I can't say anything about the new one.

Thank you.

[Sneakeater]

Adrian --

I already agreed with you that's an ironic hipster takeoff in any event. Coming from the culture makes it less offensive. (I mean, if a non-Jew did Mile End, I'd be beside myself trying to decide whether they were making fun of my people or just crazy.)

[ulterior epicure]

u.e: this video makes it pretty clear what they're trying to do (in am exceedingly limited way, obviously). They're trying to be referential and witty, I'm down with that (the tongue and cheek Judaism reminds me a lot of some of my best friends in NYC).

Read my blog post on it. I didn't need a video to know what they were trying to do. It was fairly obvious to me at the table.

[Orik]

Is it cultural appropriation when you come out of that culture?

It's even worse.

Explain.

Sorry, got to run, but I would say there's a problem with playing it both ways - suggesting that they're ironic hipsters who are elevating/saving/updating a ridiculous cuisine in some tongue-in-cheek way, and at the same time that they're genuine Italian-Americans who grew up running errands for the mob on Mulberry Street (and would occasionally sneak down to Chinatown)

Most ironic hipsters, who, say, are reviving a past of Brooklyn that never was, are from Randomville, WI and can not make such a claim, or if they happen to be of the same culture they're appropriating they just don't, or shouldn't talk about it. (because if they do they're like Eric Ripert who is suddenly from Andorra, which is almost Spain, when he sells tapas)

[Adrian]

u.e: this video makes it pretty clear what they're trying to do (in am exceedingly limited way, obviously). They're trying to be referential and witty, I'm down with that (the tongue and cheek Judaism reminds me a lot of some of my best friends in NYC).

Read my blog post on it. I didn't need a video to know what they were trying to do. It was fairly obvious to me at the table.

I agree with you!!!

(the link to the video isn't for your benefit, it's evidence as to how I can make comments about their aspirations second-hand without rendering any judgment on the food! Remember, we were team "defend Torrisi" upthread!)

[Anthony Bonner]

I THINK we're sure they did.

Isn't that culture largely working class/blue collar? Did they grow up working class? If not, does that make them appropriative? The rabbit hole goes deep. (Feel free to stop this at any time.)

as it migrated to the suburbs it went upmarket. Wasps have basically died out. The middle class and up burbs are 95% Jewish, Italian, or Irish descended - and the Irish own the Bars and the Italians own the restaurants. And the Jews do your taxes.

I can generalize more if you want.

I can name 4-5 restaurants on LI that are very high price point Italian-American pretending to be "Italian" (yes yes this is Menton's point - pretend I never said it)

[irnscrabblechf52]

"It is clear that the world is purely parodic, in other words, that each thing seen is the parody of another, or is the same thing in a deceptive form." Bataille comin atcha from The Solar Anus.

anyways, the idea that cultural "appropriation" is "ok" because the agent of appropriation is "of" the culture in question leans on a supposition: that a culture is a stable, definable, limitable text. Now, you can argue that, but you're heading uphill.

for me, the more interesting set of questions centers on what kind of parody Torrisi is. and: is the parody feeding into an ideological system. well in this case, and in almost every case of parody, the answer is yes.

but i'm sorry, I just don't think that a lot of the food at Torrisi tasted especially good. and I was very hungry going in, thus eliminating a fine discrimination or criticism based on taste. anything that tasted good would have tasted amazingly good.

eta:
it's not like i have an pretenses of anonymity, you can refer to me as Jason, which is my name. I just don't want to make a new account.

[Orik]

but i'm sorry, I just don't think that a lot of the food at Torrisi tasted especially good. and I was very hungry going in, thus eliminating a fine discrimination or criticism based on taste. anything that tasted good would have tasted amazingly good.

Yes, I think that's the bottom line (only had the 1.0 food, probably never going to try the 2.0)

[Adrian]

"It is clear that the world is purely parodic, in other words, that each thing seen is the parody of another, or is the same thing in a deceptive form." Bataille comin atcha from The Solar Anus.

anyways, the idea that cultural "appropriation" is "ok" because the agent of appropriation is "of" the culture in question leans on a supposition: that a culture is a stable, definable, limitable text. Now, you can argue that, but you're heading uphill.

for me, the more interesting set of questions centers on what kind of parody Torrisi is. and: is the parody feeding into an ideological system. well in this case, and in almost every case of parody, the answer is yes.

but i'm sorry, I just don't think that a lot of the food at Torrisi tasted especially good. and I was very hungry going in, thus eliminating a fine discrimination or criticism based on taste. anything that tasted good would have tasted amazingly good.

Yes.

[Anthony Bonner]

Is it cultural appropriation when you come out of that culture?

It's even worse.

Explain.

Sorry, got to run, but I would say there's a problem with playing it both ways - suggesting that they're ironic hipsters who are elevating/saving/updating a ridiculous cuisine in some tongue-in-cheek way, and at the same times that they're genuine Italian-Americans who grew up running errands for the mob on Mulberry Street (and would occasionally sneak down to Chinatown)

There are a lot of college educated upper middle class folk in the burbs who genuinely identify with "Italian-American Culture" and grew up eating the food every day who probably never go to manhattan for anything other that cultural events and "big nights out"

Its really pervasive in the Burbs. Maybe they were pretending to be running errands for the mob IDK, but they wouldn't need to be doing that to be of that culture. The fact they are happy to fiddle around with Jewish stuff tells me its more suburban than urban.

Its also that same cohort that forms the bulk of hipster culture. So knowing that its sort of reasonable to both play the ironic hipster and claim genuine roots in the culture.

[Orik]

Yeah, I'm sure they ran into roman jewish lamb a lot, in the burbs.

eta: I see what you're saying, but I still think it's better not to make both claims, even if they're true.

[Anthony Bonner]

Yeah, I'm sure they ran into roman jewish lamb a lot, in the burbs.

eta: I see what you're saying, but I still think it's better not to make both claims, even if they're true.

right - but no one who isn't from Rome, and probably even most Romans aren't ever going to run into roman jewish lamb. They'd have to be reimagining shitty Ben's Kosher Deli Derma or something like that to remain authentic.

and not to say I don't see your point.