605 replies to this topic

[Steve R.]

It seems to me that it has been fully discussed, here and elsewhere, over the years that most ethnic cuisines have limits for quite a few reasons. Having lived in 2 cities that have a rich history of what this thread is referring to as "red sauce" cooking (NYC (specifically Bklyn) & St. Louis), I believe that there's just so much that can be done to "move it forward" and that what we should hope for, if we like the style, is for it to be done well and not get too ambitious. Deepen the tastes, don't kill the ingredients and focus on hearty bold fare. The only innovation that I've ever appreciated in this "cuisine" has been the genius of making fried ravioli. So, from all reports (since I've never eaten there), I think the critique of Torrisi seems to be that they are not doing it well. The food didn't come out tasting like good red sauce food in their original place and isn't getting any better in their sandwich place. Maybe because they're trying to push it forward into a place that's conceptually better on paper but not on the palate, maybe they're just not good cooks. Whatever.

Say what you will about the upsell or the other weaknesses of the place, but Il Mulino was always the place I looked at for this style of cooking at its finest. Granted, I'm not sure it still is (since I really hate putting up with the overall experience there), but I am sure that there are other places that do it well. I'd include Piccolo Angelo, Parkside and several lower cost/lower quality places like New Corner in this mix. Once in awhile, even some places in Little Italy have gotten it right for awhile (Da Nico was really good for a couple of years in the '90s). Unfortunately, I think Sneak is correct in pointing out that what all these places have in common is that they are owned and kitchened by folks who are older than we are and who don't seem to have a generation below them ready to take over. Only Queen was successfully passed on to the kids and they made enough changes in the menu that it borders on being mediocre real Italian with touches of damn good red sauce Eyetalian.

[joethefoodie]

but i'm sorry, I just don't think that a lot of the food at Torrisi tasted especially good. and I was very hungry going in, thus eliminating a fine discrimination or criticism based on taste. anything that tasted good would have tasted amazingly good.

Yes, I think that's the bottom line (only had the 1.0 food, probably never going to try the 2.0)

Don't be sorry. If the food doesn't (didn't) taste good, what's the point?

One of the newer places doing some red-sauce stuff and which I can't fully make up my mind about is Sauce, on the lower east side. Certainly way less ambitious than the Torrisi boys, but I've had a few tasty dishes there.

[Sneakeater]

It seems to me that it has been fully discussed, here and elsewhere, over the years that most ethnic cuisines have limits for quite a few reasons. Having lived in 2 cities that have a rich history of what this thread is referring to as "red sauce" cooking (NYC (specifically Bklyn) & St. Louis), I believe that there's just so much that can be done to "move it forward" and that what we should hope for, if we like the style, is for it to be done well and not get too ambitious. Deepen the tastes, don't kill the ingredients and focus on hearty bold fare. The only innovation that I've ever appreciated in this "cuisine" has been the genius of making fried ravioli. So, from all reports (since I've never eaten there), I think the critique of Torrisi seems to be that they are not doing it well. The food didn't come out tasting like good red sauce food in their original place and isn't getting any better in their sandwich place. Maybe because they're trying to push it forward into a place that's conceptually better on paper but not on the palate, maybe they're just not good cooks. Whatever.

Say what you will about the upsell or the other weaknesses of the place, but Il Mulino was always the place I looked at for this style of cooking at its finest. Granted, I'm not sure it still is (since I really hate putting up with the overall experience there), but I am sure that there are other places that do it well. I'd include Piccolo Angelo, Parkside and several lower cost/lower quality places like New Corner in this mix. Once in awhile, even some places in Little Italy have gotten it right for awhile (Da Nico was really good for a couple of years in the '90s). Unfortunately, I think Sneak is correct in pointing out that what all these places have in common is that they are owned and kitchened by folks who are older than we are and who don't seem to have a generation below them ready to take over. Only Queen was successfully passed on to the kids and they made enough changes in the menu that it borders on being mediocre real Italian with touches of damn good red sauce Eyetalian.

What I think is interesting about this is that you and I both seem to think that "Red Sauce" Italian-American is "ethnic" food and that Italian-Italian isn't.

So what do you think we mean by "ethnic"?

[Steve R.]

What I think is interesting about this is that you and I both seem to think that "Red Sauce" Italian-American is "ethnic" food and that Italian-Italian isn't.

So what do you think we mean by "ethnic"?

That's a very very good question and, having thought it over until the "tilt" sign came on, I believe I have no idea how that works in my finely tuned mind. Maybe I (we) should just drop the word "ethnic" from all food descriptions, since I can't figure out why so many places seem so to me & the only plausible explanation is that I've completely bought into conservative Caucasian Protestant thinking. Of course, even this doesn't explain why I'd never describe French as ethnic, but would describe German that way. And, of course, if the English had a cuisine, I wouldn't think of it as ethnic either. Further, I could try to explain it away by saying that it's "ethnic" when taken out of its country/context (e.g.; Bklyn Eyetalian) but not when in its home ("Italian-Italian", as you put it), but I'm not sure I wouldn't see Chinese food as ethnic if I were standing, eating a dumpling in the middle of Hunan. Waaaay too thought provoking for today.

[Adrian]

That's the key question. These issues of "authenticity" I've been chirping about, really only apply to things that we categorize as "ethnic" and I have no idea what the distinction is between the two (or, whatever thoughts I do have towards the distinction probably aren't ready for prime time).

And here I thought I was going to avoid this.

[Suzanne F]

Red-sauce cooking will never die as long as people like it and want to eat it. It doesn't matter whether it's "authentic." Or even well done. It's a concept that has a lot of people enjoy and can relate to, whatever their background. I'd bet it will outlast all the foams and ashes and tall food and whatnot that are so fleetingly current.

[oakapple]

"Red sauce" is the only culinary term I can think of that is both a description and an insult. Practically no one uses it to describe a restaurant they like. In reality, there are many acclaimed "Italian" restaurants that serve "red-saucy" dishes, while not being "red sauce" places themselves (as that term is normally used).

It's not as if the average restaurant on Mulberry Street is as good as it ever gets. Osteria Morini and Maialino, for instance, serve some dishes that are stylistically similar to those found in Little Italy. They use better technique, better ingredients, make everything in house, etc., etc., but there is thematic overlap.

Exactly how it evolved is somewhat irrelevant. I mean, look at the history of the hamburger. No one is predicting its demise, despite its lowly and "inauthentic" origins.

[Orik]

How things would have been different if the French hadn't come up with the idea of putting tomatoes on pasta...

[Sneakeater]

That's not true, Oakapple. Morini serves red-saucy dishes because it serves the food of a region that features tomato sauce on pasta. It's not "red sauce" food and none of the neighborhood people who frequent Colandrea's would view it as such. I think they'd find the food at Morini highly questionable.

[Sneakeater]

And it isn't true that "red sauce" is the only culinary term that's both a description and an insult. So is "Chinese-American", at least the way it's usually taken. (Not to mention "Polynesian".)

People are condescending about "red sauce" because it is, frankly, an inferior one-dimensional cuisine. It's impossible not to think that after eating "real" Italian food.

That's not to say "red sauce" can't be delicious. It can. But (unless you twist its meaning to make it include things it doesn't) it's never going to hit the heights (or, I'd argue, undergo any real non-ironic development). It just can't. It's essentially culturally dead.

[Sneakeater]

To be clear, you know as well as I do that "red sauce" doesn't just mean an Italian restaurant you don't like. It's a specific cuisine that came out of a specific (if widely dispersed) community. I (and I think most people) use it to refer to restaurants I like and restaurants I don't like -- although unfortunately the latter far outnumber the former (which I am not happy about).

[oakapple]

To be clear, you know as well as I do that "red sauce" doesn't just mean an Italian restaurant you don't like. It's a specific cuisine that came out of a specific (if widely dispersed) community.

Aren't all cuisines?

I (and I think most people) use it to refer to restaurants I like and restaurants I don't like -- although unfortunately the latter far outnumber the former (which I am not happy about).

I don't think I have ever seen that term in a review, in which it wasn't being used somewhat disparagingly. The next time I see it used any other way, will be the first time.

[Sneakeater]

They're using it wrong.

I'll bet I can find one, though.

Give me a couple of minutes.

[Sneakeater]

This highly favorable review (Sietsema also loves Colandrea's) almost uses the term "red sauce".

I'd say it's highly pertinent to this discussion in general.

[Sneakeater]

These issues of "authenticity" I've been chirping about, really only apply to things that we categorize as "ethnic"

Key point here.

Another wrinkle: while I said above that Italian-Italian (as opposed to Italian-American) isn't considered "ethnic", the fact remains that until very recently (and maybe still now) it was felt that excuses had to be made for non-ethnic-Italian Italian chefs like Michael White and Scott Conant. (Nobody cares whether chefs at "French" restaurants are French.)

So I guess Italian-Italian is quasi-not-"ethnic".