371 replies to this topic

[Orik]

I think the objections (not by Wilfrid, he never said that) to unreal restaurants are a mixture of an objection to this idea and an admiration of business success that leads to a rejection of projects that are clearly not fully formed businesses (Roberta's tasting table, Frej)

I am struggling with this sentence. Maybe too many negatives.

Why does anyone think I have any objection whatsoever to Frej? Truly bizarre (if that's what's being said here).

It must be a linguistic issue.

It seems like AB, Adrian and myself are convinced that statements by Wilfrid, oakapple, and others are overall negative and describe Frej, as well as a host of new-paradigm restaurants as unreal, cheating, enjoying a lower level of difficulty, inhospitable, evoking less than positive feelings (wrt reservation systems, imaginary jam jars, seating arrangements) and so on. In addition, there seem to be alternating accusations that these are not real businesses on one hand, and that their operators are scheming to maximize profits by convincing the unwashed that butchering their own food and eating it off paper plates in the dark is kewl on the other hand.

If these convictions are completely off the mark then we can save a lot of time.

[Wilfrid]

This is my first post about Frej, and only the second time Frej was mentioned on Mouthfuls.

I was excited by the concept, having recently eaten well at Masten Lake and Isa, and having Gwynett Street in my sights.

I didn't get to Frej because they dropped the ball in an email exchange about reservations. These things happen.

I have absolutely nothing but enthusiasm for Frej.

unreal, cheating, enjoying a lower level of difficulty, inhospitable, evoking less than positive feelings

I've observed several times that I've given Roberta's three pretty good reviews. I was positive about Ko (and detected it as a trend back in 2007).

This really is ridiculous, and totally unfair.

[Wilfrid]

Yes, there's a lot of bullshit in the blogosphere about breaking down whole animals, whole-beast-feasts, how great it is to stand up while eating, and tattoos as the true mark of a chef.

But these things don't necessarily map onto the "new paradigm" restaurants at all.

[Anthony Bonner]

Yes, there's a lot of bullshit in the blogosphere about breaking down whole animals, whole-beast-feasts, how great it is to stand up while eating, and tattoos as the true mark of a chef.

But these things don't necessarily map onto the "new paradigm" restaurants at all.

Gold Star

[Sneakeater]

This will be less fun if it turns out we all agree (as I suspected all along).

[Wilfrid]

True, but portraying me as a Frej-hater is just absurd.

[Orik]

I never said that.

[oakapple]

It seems like AB, Adrian and myself are convinced that statements by Wilfrid, oakapple, and others are overall negative and describe Frej, as well as a host of new-paradigm restaurants as unreal, cheating, enjoying a lower level of difficulty, inhospitable, evoking less than positive feelings (wrt reservation systems, imaginary jam jars, seating arrangements) and so on. In addition, there seem to be alternating accusations that these are not real businesses on one hand, and that their operators are scheming to maximize profits by convincing the unwashed that butchering their own food and eating it off paper plates in the dark is kewl on the other hand.

If these convictions are completely off the mark then we can save a lot of time.

Gosh, that's an awful lot. I've nothing against Frej at all. It's not a real restaurant, but that's not a criticism, just a description of what it is. From various comments in the press, it's clear that the Frej guys would like to graduate to something permanent, when and if they can. I wish them the best.

I don't think email is the best way to manage a book of reservations, and that is the system Frej is using right now. That is a criticism; then again, it's a reflection of the current arrangement's impermanent status.

I believe it's beyond argument that the chef's degree of difficulty is lower when he serves the identical menu to every customer. Whatever the Frej guys are doing, now imagine if there were 3 or 4 or 10 options for every course. That doesn't mean they're cheating; it's just a different way of doing business.

[oakapple]

A number of reviewers have made a similar comment about such places: it's clearly a lower degree of difficulty when you allow the diner no choice.

Of course we agree with that. But why do you care as long as you like the choices on the carte? why does that make it a less worthwhile restaurant? Or make them lesser restauranteurs.

It doesn't make it a less worthwhile restaurant. Actually, it could be MORE worthwhile: I like Per Se better than I like Daniel, but Daniel has a bunch of choices, and Per Se has very few.

[taion]

I think we're just splitting hairs here. "Lower level of difficulty" and "innovations that allow them to serve food of higher quality" are different sides of the same coin.

[Adrian]

I think we're just splitting hairs here. "Lower level of difficulty" and "innovations that allow them to serve food of higher quality" are different sides of the same coin.

I don't think so (sort of, kind of). The issue isn't that it's "easy" to serve the food that these places serve - in fact, it's quite hard and requires a tremendous amount of talent - but that these guys can't serve that food any other way. I mean, yes, it's a "lower level of difficulty" to serve modern, complex, Michelin level food with a small kitchen and three guys cooking but I don't think it's any "easier" than what Real Restaurants do. The point is that these guys either 1) can't get the capital to do what Real Restaurants do or 2) don't want to operate in a Real Restaurant environment or 3) both. So there is a tradeoff between "large kitchen, lots of capital, $100 million buildout" and "no capital, small kitchen, multi-purpose space". Is it any less difficult to serve a complex, multi-course menu in an ad hoc space with two guys than to serve a simpler or comparable standard length menu with a full brigade and a custom kitchen? I doubt it. Which I think is slightly different than the above point.

[taion]

I think we're just splitting hairs here. "Lower level of difficulty" and "innovations that allow them to serve food of higher quality" are different sides of the same coin.

I don't think so (sort of, kind of). The issue isn't that it's "easy" to serve the food that these places serve - in fact, it's quite hard and requires a tremendous amount of talent - but that these guys can't serve that food any other way. I mean, yes, it's a "lower level of difficulty" to serve modern, complex, Michelin level food with a small kitchen and three guys cooking but I don't think it's any "easier" than what Real Restaurants do. The point is that these guys either 1) can't get the capital to do what Real Restaurants do or 2) don't want to operate in a Real Restaurant environment or 3) both. So there is a tradeoff between "large kitchen, lots of capital, $100 million buildout" and "no capital, small kitchen, multi-purpose space". Is it any less difficult to serve a complex, multi-course menu in an ad hoc space with two guys than to serve a simpler or comparable standard length menu with a full brigade and a custom kitchen? I doubt it. Which I think is slightly different than the above point.

Perhaps difficulty is the wrong word then. What I mean is that the Frej model likely wouldn't scale up well to a "real restaurant" that also tried to do things like offer diners choice in what they ate. But I think it's not unreasonable to say that if the kind of food they're serving wouldn't work well in a "real restaurant", then tautologically a different restaurant format that does make it possible to serve that kind of food "lowers the difficulty" of doing so.

But what I'm really trying to say is that I don't mean this as some sort of value judgment - it's just the observation that this restaurant format goes well with this kind of food for reasons beyond just the vagaries of funding or whatever.

[Wilfrid]

... 2) don't want to operate in a Real Restaurant environment...

You really are still drinking the KoolAid, aren't you.

"No! Get me out of here!"

[Adrian]

... 2) don't want to operate in a Real Restaurant environment...

You really are still drinking the KoolAid, aren't you.

"No! Get me out of here!"

A $180 tasting menu to be eaten at a counter in a Bushwick basement while listening to Captain Beefheart. I can't wait for Mirarchi to move to Central Park South and install bidets.

[oakapple]

I think we're just splitting hairs here. "Lower level of difficulty" and "innovations that allow them to serve food of higher quality" are different sides of the same coin.

What innovation are you referring to? The set menu with little or no choice is an old idea.

Perhaps difficulty is the wrong word then. What I mean is that the Frej model likely wouldn't scale up well to a "real restaurant" that also tried to do things like offer diners choice in what they ate.

I would be surprised if there are NOT restaurants serving that style of cuisine, doing so better than Frej, and offering choices to the customer.

There may be no NYC restaurants doing so, which is another matter entirely.