371 replies to this topic

[Sneakeater]

The question is whether we're fools for going to such restaurants, when BF arguably establishes that if you free such chefs from the constraints of expensive build-outs and the rest, they can create truly excellent food.

My unsophisticated response is that I've gotta eat, and I can't afford a BF/Roberta's-level tasting menus every night, even if I could get into them—which I can't.

Sure, but in a way, that's a red herring. It's not like you'll be going to Corton or The NoMad those nights.

I was talking more about two models of expensive restaurants.

[Sneakeater]

I have no doubt most of those other chef could produce as good or probably better meals than what BF et al are doing - I suspect Liebrandt would kill it. And I get why they are doing what they are doing where they are doing it. The irony is that the "not real restaurant" crowd could never have gotten the deals those guys got. They are doing what they are doing out of necessity.

Look at that fool Mads Refslund, making tons of money and meeting scores of women at Acme, when he could be receiving the highest level of critical praise squeaking by at a food counter in Brooklyn.

[Anthony Bonner]

Gold star

[oakapple]

My unsophisticated response is that I've gotta eat, and I can't afford a BF/Roberta's-level tasting menus every night, even if I could get into them—which I can't.

Sure, but in a way, that's a red herring. It's not like you'll be going to Corton or The NoMad those nights.

I was talking more about two models of expensive restaurants.

Well, suppose we limit the discussion to those evenings when I want an expensive meal—however infrequently that may be.

There's still the fact that it takes quite a bit more effort to arrange a visit to BF or Roberta's(*), and I might just not be up to that. You've frequently said, "I'm not going to all of that work, just for dinner." I'm a bit more willing to work for dinner than you, but I have my limits.

I mean, Corton is available tonight on OpenTable right now, and at good times too, like 8:00pm. Whether Corton is as good as Roberta's could be argued all night, but it sure ain't bad.

(*)I'm referring to the "old" Roberta's, pre-Blanca: only certain nights a week, only at 6pm, and only for a minimum of four people. It may be a lot easier now.

[taion]

They are serving 20+ courses, though, over the course of 3 hours at a minimum. How well do you think they could scale up in terms of either diners served or number of turns done? And while a nice online system is probably better for everyone, taking reservations by phone certainly isn't ridiculous, is it? It's what everyone would have done several years ago.

The old Roberta's model did suck, but they changed it. And even if any of these places were on OT, it's not like you could get an 8 PM same-day reservation anyway. I mean, look at Per Se (ex Salon), JG, and Daniel.

[Sneakeater]

Well, suppose we limit the discussion to those evenings when I want an expensive meal—however infrequently that may be.

There's still the fact that it takes quite a bit more effort to arrange a visit to BF or Roberta's(*), and I might just not be up to that. You've frequently said, "I'm not going to all of that work, just for dinner." I'm a bit more willing to work for dinner than you, but I have my limits.

I mean, Corton is available tonight on OpenTable right now, and at good times too, like 8:00pm. Whether Corton is as good as Roberta's could be argued all night, but it sure ain't bad.

(*)I'm referring to the "old" Roberta's, pre-Blanca: only certain nights a week, only at 6pm, and only for a minimum of four people. It may be a lot easier now.

Of course, as you know, I'm WITH you on that. That's why I never go to those places, either.

[Sneakeater]

They are serving 20+ courses, though, over the course of 3 hours at a minimum. How well do you think they could scale up in terms of either diners served or number of turns done? And while a nice online system is probably better for everyone, taking reservations by phone certainly isn't ridiculous, is it? It's what everyone would have done several years ago.

The old Roberta's model did suck, but they changed it. And even if any of these places were on OT, it's not like you could get an 8 PM same-day reservation anyway. I mean, look at Per Se (ex Salon), JG, and Daniel.

Right. This might be an inevitable problem with these restaurants. That's why they can't be a universal model for fine-dining restaurants.

PS -- The fact that they serve a mandatory 20+ courses over the course of three hours at a minimum might be considered by some to be ANOTHER downside.

PPS -- Per Se, JG, Daniel, sure. But that kind of demand only affects the very top -- or at least most popular -- traditional restaurants. With the dining counter/tasting menu places, if they're popular at all, their formats dictate that they'll be nearly impossible to get into. Look at Atera. Hell, look at Degustation (at least in its earlier years). It was a fine restaurant, but no one would have said it was on the Per Se level. But it was really really hard to get a seat there. For obvious reasons.

[taion]

BF/Blanca aside, which try to take the high end, what if there were dozens of Frejs? That doesn't seem like such a bad outcome. At some level the aggregate supply must get high enough such that it wouldn't be impossible to get eat there. Frej didn't explode until a few months after they opened.

[Anthony Bonner]

BF/Blanca aside, which try to take the high end, what if there were dozens of Frejs? That doesn't seem like such a bad outcome. At some level the aggregate supply must get high enough such that it wouldn't be impossible to get eat there. Frej didn't explode until a few months after they opened.

Exactly. We need enough Frejs so that they aren't a hassle to get a table at places like that. The Robertas/bf model is quite different and much less plausible a solution to what's wrong with NYC restos.

In other words Gold Star

[Lex]

In other words Gold Star

Now you're just toying with me.

[Anthony Bonner]

In other words Gold Star

Now you're just toying with me.

You are collateral damage

[Orik]

I wonder at what point Facebook lawyers are going to realize Gold Stars are similar to Likes.

[Anthony Bonner]

No no no. We monetize "Gold Star" once they figure it out. I'm thinking we can get a low nine figure valuation easy.

[taion]

Would Torrisi go in the same category as Frej?

[Daisy]

My initial response is to think of it the way you do. But thinking some more, maybe in a way, you've got it backwards.

The way to look at it arguably isn't whether Canora, Mendes, Allegretti, Liebrandt, and Humm are fools for cooking in traditional restaurants in New York. In varying degrees, they're all doing fine. And who really cares if they are or aren't, anyway?

The question is whether we're fools for going to such restaurants, when BF arguably establishes that if you free such chefs from the constraints of expensive build-outs and the rest, they can create truly excellent food.

The problem, of course, is the phrase I'm constrained to add to that sentence: not that I would know.

As a consumer, I find there's just something about restaurants I can actually go to.

This might actually rate the extremely rare platinum star.

I have no doubt most of those other chef could produce as good or probably better meals than what BF et al are doing - I suspect Liebrandt would kill it. And I get why they are doing what they are doing where they are doing it. The irony is that the "not real restaurant" crowd could never have gotten the deals those guys got. They are doing what they are doing out of necessity.

Liebrandt has already proved he can kill it, with his cooking at Gilt. The few meals I had there which he produced were extraordinary. But a misguided NYT review put a stop to that.