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#16 Stone

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:50 PM

I'm sorry, I thought it was already established on these august pages that red sauce Italian is inherently poor food?

I enjoy red sauce Italian.  I would never hesitate to go with a crowd to Carmines.

 

However, it is hard to find places that do it consistently.  When you cover a crisp chicken/veal cutlet with cheese and sauce, it's hard to maintain the integrity of the cutlet.  But it certainly can be done.  

 

As Suzzane notes, the dishes in the slideshow don't look like what I consider to be classic red sauce Italian.  If they're updating the classics, however, that's great.  


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#17 Sneakeater

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:53 PM

Stone, are you intentionally misreading what people wrote about red sauce, or unintentionally misreading it?

 

ETA -- Do you think it's possible to like burgers without thinking they're the height of cuisine?


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#18 Lex

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 02:59 PM

I've heard Sneak say very nice things about well made red sauce Italian for years.


"I don't understand what's wrong with thinking of correlation as a pricing convention the way one thinks of Black-Scholes vol. I mean, vol curves aren't "real" anyway, but nobody uses local vol models to price vanilla options." - Taion
 
"But this is blatant ultracrepidarianism on my part." - Taion

I have a dream of a multiplicity of pastramis.

"once the penis came out, there was discussions as to why we didn't order the testicles" - Daniel describing a meal in China

#19 Stone

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:03 PM

I don't believe I was misreading at all what some people said about red sauce.  Not necessary Sneak.  But I'm usually wrong.


A Hudson Valley Home.  Kichels --  A Recipe from the Old Country.

Just take those old records off the shelf.


#20 Anthony Bonner

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:05 PM

I thought Orik was the only full blown anti-red sauce poster?

 

ETA: Chicken Scarpiello and Lobster pasta are pretty "classic fancy red sauce Italian" 


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#21 Sneakeater

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:36 PM

Here's my take on what's been said (as if anyone cares):

 

1.  For years, people who have written about food have dismissed red sauce.  This was mainly because, as everyone has to agree, it's inferior to Italian Italian food.  So when Italian Italian food was hard to find here, it sort of became a badge of honor to dismiss the Italian-American stuff generally offered instead.

 

2.  But with the appreciation for vernacular cuisines that's grown in the last several years, it became apparent that the total dismissal of red sauce was an overreaction.  It may never be great food, but there's no reason it can't be good.  Of course it can.

 

3.  The problem is that it so infrequently is.  There are so few places that do it well.  Even the more celebrated ones usually turn out to be overrated, liked more out of nostalgia than for their actual worth.  So when you come across a really good red sauce place, it's a cause for celebration.

 

4.  Even at its best, red sauce isn't going to be as good as "real" Italian food.  But just because a hamburger isn't haute cuisine, it doesn't mean it can't be good (and that some can't be better than others).

 

5.  Some people don't like red sauce at all.  But they're cold.  (They also probably didn't grow up eating it.)


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#22 oakapple

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 03:47 PM

Red sauce is one of those food phrases that ought to be banned, as it says so very little.


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#23 Lex

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:03 PM

Red sauce is one of those food phrases that ought to be banned, as it says so very little.

 

On the surface it says "I think my taste is really sophisticated."  What it really says is "I spend so much time worrying about appearing smart that I can't be seen appreciating a simple pleasure."


"I don't understand what's wrong with thinking of correlation as a pricing convention the way one thinks of Black-Scholes vol. I mean, vol curves aren't "real" anyway, but nobody uses local vol models to price vanilla options." - Taion
 
"But this is blatant ultracrepidarianism on my part." - Taion

I have a dream of a multiplicity of pastramis.

"once the penis came out, there was discussions as to why we didn't order the testicles" - Daniel describing a meal in China

#24 Anthony Bonner

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:31 PM

What would you prefer as a descriptive term? Italian-American? 

 

What's next Lex - you going to start picketing Coppola and Scorsese? Trying to revitalize Columbus Day?


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#25 Wilfrid

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:31 PM

I thought Orik was the only full blown anti-red sauce poster?

Not keen.



#26 Adrian

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:32 PM

Red sauce is one of those food phrases that ought to be banned, as it says so very little.

 

On the surface it says "I think my taste is really sophisticated."  What it really says is "I spend so much time worrying about appearing smart that I can't be seen appreciating a simple pleasure."

But in the Torissi-Carbone context, it's actually a way of saying that you're so sophisticated that you can appreciate an unloved cuisine for its fundamental quality (real or imagined). It's a way of differentiating yourself from typical standards of "quality" or "luxury" or "taste" by putting yourself above those standards and claiming that they're all a construct based on a rejection of the vernacular or conventionally popular. It's like when hipsters listen to Hall and Oates (Yeah I know it's gauche but it's so good and entertaining that I'm indifferent to the fact that I'm not supposed to like it).


I think you need to interpret what I'm saying in a reasonable way.


#27 Lex

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:34 PM

What would you prefer as a descriptive term? Italian-American? 

 

What's next Lex - you going to start picketing Coppola and Scorsese? Trying to revitalize Columbus Day?

 

I am comfortable in my own skin.  I *like* red sauce stuff.  I think there's no reason why it can't peacefully co-exist with Italian-Italian, which I also like (more.)


"I don't understand what's wrong with thinking of correlation as a pricing convention the way one thinks of Black-Scholes vol. I mean, vol curves aren't "real" anyway, but nobody uses local vol models to price vanilla options." - Taion
 
"But this is blatant ultracrepidarianism on my part." - Taion

I have a dream of a multiplicity of pastramis.

"once the penis came out, there was discussions as to why we didn't order the testicles" - Daniel describing a meal in China

#28 Lex

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:42 PM

 

Red sauce is one of those food phrases that ought to be banned, as it says so very little.

 
On the surface it says "I think my taste is really sophisticated."  What it really says is "I spend so much time worrying about appearing smart that I can't be seen appreciating a simple pleasure."

 

But in the Torissi-Carbone context, it's actually a way of saying that you're so sophisticated that you can appreciate an unloved cuisine for its fundamental quality (real or imagined). It's a way of differentiating yourself from typical standards of "quality" or "luxury" or "taste" by putting yourself above those standards and claiming that they're all a construct based on a rejection of the vernacular or conventionally popular. It's like when hipsters listen to Hall and Oates (Yeah I know it's gauche but it's so good and entertaining that I'm indifferent to the fact that I'm not supposed to like it).

 
I agree, although you need to be more snarky. 

 

What they're doing is making it safe for insecure people to eat Italian American food by covering the walls with "art curated by Vito Schnabel" and dressing the servers in "vintage vests and tuxedos by fashion designer Zac Posen."


"I don't understand what's wrong with thinking of correlation as a pricing convention the way one thinks of Black-Scholes vol. I mean, vol curves aren't "real" anyway, but nobody uses local vol models to price vanilla options." - Taion
 
"But this is blatant ultracrepidarianism on my part." - Taion

I have a dream of a multiplicity of pastramis.

"once the penis came out, there was discussions as to why we didn't order the testicles" - Daniel describing a meal in China

#29 Nathan

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:42 PM

What Lex said. 


Blatantly Obvious Disclaimer:

My opinions are obviously my personal opinions. Not yours. Not universal.


#30 Adrian

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:53 PM

Yes, but Au Pied de Cochon and, even, Mission Chinese. 


I think you need to interpret what I'm saying in a reasonable way.