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#61 joethefoodie

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 06:38 PM

 

If I'm forced to choose, I'll the old skool list at the new geek prices. :D


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Responding to Joe's comment, I think that explains what's happening now.  It's not like you now get lists like you used to get at three-star restaurants at mid-priced restaurants.  You wouldn't want to:  the wines would be too grand and expensive for the food (the Apiary problem).
 
What you now get at mid-priced places are extensive, well-curated (heh) geeky lists, with wines at prices more appropriate to the food.  Which I agree is a great thing.

 

 

Coming back from Madrid and Rome recently (and dining with Aroma Cucina who only comes back from Italy when dragged), I think to myself: "We sure drank a lot of good wine in various restaurants and wine bars for $5. $6 , $7 a glass or $20 - $25 a bottle." In Rome especially, focusing on wines from Lazio and Campagna was enlightening. They were very good with the food we were eating.

 

And then I think - "Oh, if that were only the case in NYC." Yet at this point in NYC, $50, $60 or $70 for a bottle of good wine is actually pretty fucking reasonable. To say nothing of wines with age at $100.



#62 Sneakeater

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 06:40 PM

I feel sick every time I come home from Europe and start eating here again.


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#63 Wilfrid

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 07:38 PM

Right.  It's another way of masking the true cost of preparing and serving, isn't it?



#64 AromaCucina

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 10:17 PM

Right.  It's another way of masking the true cost of preparing and serving, isn't it?

I think it's more about paying the rent. 

 

A thoughtful discussion going on here. There seem to be two threads: price and appropriateness of the wine list. 

 

Wine should be enjoyed with the food being served.  A thoughtful wine list would recognize that.  

If the object is to feature some great wine purchases/values, then perhaps a dedicated wine bar would be a more appropriate venue.  I don't see it as particularly 'geeky' to have a list that's curated to play nicely with the food. We tasted quite a few dishes last night, and there wasn't anything that 'needed' a big, old, wine. I'm not saying we tasted everything (ask JoetheFoodie about sharing...)

 

Europe has a different relationship with wine (and with food, but that's fodder for another forum). Wine is a core element of the dinner, it isn't fetishized like it here. 

You'd be singing a solo if you tried these kind of prices in a local (i.e. not focused on tourist/international trade) restaurant. 

 

NYC restaurants have incredible obstacles to remain in business and make some sort of profit. I may not like it, but I understand the wine pricing. 


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#65 joethefoodie

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 03:14 AM

 (ask JoetheFoodie about sharing...)

 

I've heard he doesn't like to.



#66 Sneakeater

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 03:32 AM

Funny. I've heard the same thing!
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#67 Wilfrid

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 04:10 PM

 

Right.  It's another way of masking the true cost of preparing and serving the food, isn't it?

I think it's more about paying the rent. 

 

 

 

Sorry, I dropped a couple of words.  Yes, of course you're right.   I had in mind what a New York restaurant would have to charge for food in order to cover overheads and realize at least some profit margin if it wasn't marking up wine--and liquor even more--so extravagantly, but I didn't spell that out.  



#68 Wilfrid

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 04:14 PM

Curious about the consumer psychology.  As Joe says, a $60/$70 bottle of wine now looks reasonable on a New York list, but a $46 entree upsets us. Medium restaurants have held entree prices in the 30s for many years now.



#69 joethefoodie

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:02 PM

Curious about the consumer psychology.  As Joe says, a $60/$70 bottle of wine now looks reasonable on a New York list, but a $46 entree upsets us. Medium restaurants have held entree prices in the 30s for many years now.

Yep - I totally look at that bottle as my 4 $15 - $16 glasses of wine, or 2 $15 cocktails and 2 $15 glasses of wine.

 

To be sure, there are places where some decent wines may be had at $10 - $12, but they are getting fewer and farther between.



#70 Sneakeater

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:12 PM

Yep - I totally look at that bottle as my 4 $15 - $16 glasses of wine, or 2 $15 cocktails and 2 $15 glasses of wine.


That is EXACTLY how I analyze it. (Not that I don't have a cocktail, too.)
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#71 joethefoodie

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:33 PM

 

Yep - I totally look at that bottle as my 4 $15 - $16 glasses of wine, or 2 $15 cocktails and 2 $15 glasses of wine.


That is EXACTLY how I analyze it. (Not that I don't have a cocktail, too.)

 

 

That indeed is the issue. The other night the 4 of us spent just  about $100 per, all in.

 

When you consider that the food is $38, and if one only drank water it would be $50 pp all in, that's the NY restaurant scene kind of in a nutshell. Half or more of your money is gonna be spent on some sort of booze.



#72 Sneakeater

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:56 PM

Half or more of your money is gonna be spent on some sort of booze.


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#73 LiquidNY

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 07:10 PM

Yep - I totally look at that bottle as my 4 $15 - $16 glasses of wine, or 2 $15 cocktails and 2 $15 glasses of wine.

That is EXACTLY how I analyze it. (Not that I don't have a cocktail, too.)

Me too. And I always end up ordering both.

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#74 Wilfrid

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 08:24 PM

Yeah, but my question was: why don't people look at a $50 entree and say, okay that's three cocktails or three glasses of wine, fair enough?  

 

The general reaction to a $46 share of duck at Vaucluse was very negative.



#75 Wilfrid

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 08:25 PM

It would be interesting to go back and look, but I'm sure I was paying $30 plus for entrees at quite fancy places back in 2000.  Entrees should be much more expensive now--yet restaurateurs, I'm sure wisely, try to find the money by raising drink prices or switching out the rack of lamb for lamb's neck.







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