Jump to content


Photo

Frenchette


  • Please log in to reply
961 replies to this topic

#31 Lex

Lex

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 23,867 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 07:59 PM

Above all, it's an issue for Lex, because the burger needs to be priced not much less than a full entree.

 

I thought we put this one to bed a long time ago.  You convinced me.  A full service restaurant with an expensive cost structure needs to make a certain amount of money per entree, hence a burger needs to price that in. 

 

My issue is whether it's worth it.  A burger isn't some exotic dish that requires premium ingredients and a high level of skill to prepare.  Yes, the Ozersky / Lafrieda myth machine claimed it did but that was marketing bullshit.  Since I can get a good burger at a more casual place for about 50% to 60% of the cost of one served at a full service restaurant I don't think ordering one there is a good use of my money.  Besides, the reason I go to a full service restaurant is because they serve dishes that require real skill to prepare.  I order one of those even though it may cost $10 to $15 more than the burger.  To me that's money well spent.

 

There are people who I respect who occasionally have burgers at full service restaurants.  They've got their reasons and I have no issue with them.  We all get to order what we want.


"I don't understand what's wrong with thinking of correlation as a pricing convention the way one thinks of Black-Scholes vol. I mean, vol curves aren't "real" anyway, but nobody uses local vol models to price vanilla options." - Taion
 
"But this is blatant ultracrepidarianism on my part." - Taion

I have a dream of a multiplicity of pastramis.

"once the penis came out, there was discussions as to why we didn't order the testicles" - Daniel describing a meal in China

#32 Lex

Lex

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 23,867 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 08:14 PM

By all accounts the food Nasr and Hanson produced at Minetta was very good.  (I never went - I wasn't willing to jump through the McNally hoops.)  N & H are proven talents and I expect them to produce food of similar or even better quality at Frenchette.  Without the McNally halo effect after the opening crowds die down it should be possible to get a reservation with only a reasonable amount of effort.  I look forward to going.


"I don't understand what's wrong with thinking of correlation as a pricing convention the way one thinks of Black-Scholes vol. I mean, vol curves aren't "real" anyway, but nobody uses local vol models to price vanilla options." - Taion
 
"But this is blatant ultracrepidarianism on my part." - Taion

I have a dream of a multiplicity of pastramis.

"once the penis came out, there was discussions as to why we didn't order the testicles" - Daniel describing a meal in China

#33 Orik

Orik

    Advanced Member

  • Technocrat
  • PipPipPip
  • 21,509 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:19 PM


Above all, it's an issue for Lex, because the burger needs to be priced not much less than a full entree.

 
I thought we put this one to bed a long time ago.  You convinced me.  A full service restaurant with an expensive cost structure needs to make a certain amount of money per entree, hence a burger needs to price that in. 
 
My issue is whether it's worth it.  A burger isn't some exotic dish that requires premium ingredients and a high level of skill to prepare.  Yes, the Ozersky / Lafrieda myth machine claimed it did but that was marketing bullshit.  Since I can get a good burger at a more casual place for about 50% to 60% of the cost of one served at a full service restaurant I don't think ordering one there is a good use of my money.  Besides, the reason I go to a full service restaurant is because they serve dishes that require real skill to prepare.  I order one of those even though it may cost $10 to $15 more than the burger.  To me that's money well spent.
 
There are people who I respect who occasionally have burgers at full service restaurants.  They've got their reasons and I have no issue with them.  We all get to order what we want.

An equivalent patty at Pino costs about $5 retail. Add fries, bun, etc. and with usual NYC markups you get minneta prices. Now think what you're eating when you pay half...
sandwiches that are large and filling and do not contain tuna or prawns

#34 Lex

Lex

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 23,867 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:52 PM

An equivalent patty at Pino costs about $5 retail. Add fries, bun, etc. and with usual NYC markups you get minneta prices. Now think what you're eating when you pay half...


And yet I'm still alive.  Golly.


"I don't understand what's wrong with thinking of correlation as a pricing convention the way one thinks of Black-Scholes vol. I mean, vol curves aren't "real" anyway, but nobody uses local vol models to price vanilla options." - Taion
 
"But this is blatant ultracrepidarianism on my part." - Taion

I have a dream of a multiplicity of pastramis.

"once the penis came out, there was discussions as to why we didn't order the testicles" - Daniel describing a meal in China

#35 Sneakeater

Sneakeater

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63,026 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:56 PM

Please understand me.  I'm not saying the Black Label Burger was Evil.  I liked the Black Label Burger.

 

I'm just saying that it's obvious to me why Lee and Riad wouldn't want a burger at their own new restaurant.


Bar Loser

MF Old

#36 Steve R.

Steve R.

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,869 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 09:59 PM

 

Above all, it's an issue for Lex, because the burger needs to be priced not much less than a full entree.

 

I thought we put this one to bed a long time ago.  You convinced me.  A full service restaurant with an expensive cost structure needs to make a certain amount of money per entree, hence a burger needs to price that in. 

 

My issue is whether it's worth it.  A burger isn't some exotic dish that requires premium ingredients and a high level of skill to prepare.  Yes, the Ozersky / Lafrieda myth machine claimed it did but that was marketing bullshit.  Since I can get a good burger at a more casual place for about 50% to 60% of the cost of one served at a full service restaurant I don't think ordering one there is a good use of my money.  Besides, the reason I go to a full service restaurant is because they serve dishes that require real skill to prepare.  I order one of those even though it may cost $10 to $15 more than the burger.  To me that's money well spent.

 

There are people who I respect who occasionally have burgers at full service restaurants.  They've got their reasons and I have no issue with them.  We all get to order what we want.

 

 

You respect me?!

 

You were talking about me, right?

 

At any rate, there's also the issue of going somewhere that others (ones you probably do respect - like Ginny) want to go so they can get frivolous entrees like lamb, steak, duck -- while all someone like me sees that they want on the particular menu is a good burger (unless, of course, there's also a good chicken).


This space available… contact owner.


#37 Sneakeater

Sneakeater

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63,026 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:00 PM

It is an issue for chefs, who think it's not an expression of their skill; and it is an issue for owners, who need to make money.  It's not either/or. 

 

George Mendes could have made sure that Aldea was the most populist, revenue-maximizing restaurant he could have conceived. 

 

But he didn't.


Bar Loser

MF Old

#38 Sneakeater

Sneakeater

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63,026 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:03 PM

This is another instance where restaurant food is like pop music.

 

Some people just try to go for the LCD and try to make a lot of money.

 

Some people try to pursue their vision (within a broadly populist framework -- but not always at the populist end of it).

 

Some of the broad LCD stuff is great (Phil Spector, ABBA).  Some is horrible ("Hitchin' a Ride").

 

Some of the "pursue their vision" stuff is great (Lou Reed).  Some is horrible (I'll let you fill this in).

 

But on the whole, the great "pursue your vision" stuff is the best.

 

And irrespective, you can't confuse the one with the other.  (Or -- and this is what the High Culture Snobs love to do -- and they're completely missing the point -- you can't equate the "pursue their vision" stuff with the broad LCD stuff, even if they're all operating within a commercial context.  They come from different impulses.  Leonard Cohen is just different from the 1910 Fruitgum Company -- no matter what the stupid High Culture Snobs like to claim.) (And, just to be clear, I loved both.)


Bar Loser

MF Old

#39 Steve R.

Steve R.

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 6,869 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:09 PM

https://www.thrillis...est-burgers-nyc

 

A list of those pursuing their vision successfully. :D


This space available… contact owner.


#40 Sneakeater

Sneakeater

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63,026 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:39 PM

Or, to put it one other way:

 

There were a lot of reasons to criticize the Nobel Prize award to Bob Dylan (I agree with many of them).

 

But "he was just doing it to make money" wasn't an acceptable one.


Bar Loser

MF Old

#41 Wilfrid

Wilfrid

    Advanced Member

  • Admin
  • PipPipPip
  • 85,469 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:45 PM

Not to digress, but you think Benny, Bjorn and Spector weren't pursuing their visions?

I agree with your general point, but this is the place for pedantry (and winding Lex up about burgers).

#42 Sneakeater

Sneakeater

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63,026 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:46 PM

ETA:  A lot of Classical Music Reactionaries make the same stupid accusation against Philip Glass.
 
"He just wrote those operas as a cynical way to make money," they say (I'm not making this up:  they really do).
 
As if writing a six-hour piece in a style most people at the time of composition detested were a sure path to riches.
 
If it isn't clear, the point I'm trying to make is this.  There are these sort of mixed fields of popular and genuine where you can try to pursue your vision, maybe make a decent amount of money, or if you're really lucky a lot.  But to say that all esthetic decisions within these fields are totally dictated by money is snobbish and reductionist.  Lee and Riad can try to make a reasonable amount of money in a commercial context, but still reject the burger if they didn't like what the burger entailed at their last place (where the burger in fact ultimately ended up requiring their departure).
Bar Loser

MF Old

#43 Sneakeater

Sneakeater

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 63,026 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:46 PM

Not to digress, but you think Benny, Bjorn and Spector weren't pursuing their visions?

I agree with your general point, but this is the place for pedantry (and winding Lex up about burgers).

 

Phil is psychotic, so who knows?

 

Bjorn and Benny (whom I idolize) I'm not so sure about.


Bar Loser

MF Old

#44 Wilfrid

Wilfrid

    Advanced Member

  • Admin
  • PipPipPip
  • 85,469 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:47 PM

I'm now entranced by possible analogies between Scott Walker and Paul Liebrandt. Perhaps Paul will give us his greatest restaurant after a 10 year break.

#45 Wilfrid

Wilfrid

    Advanced Member

  • Admin
  • PipPipPip
  • 85,469 posts

Posted 05 April 2018 - 10:49 PM

Mineral would have worked fine with an overhaul and an Odeon casual food menu with a flagship burger. But that requires less expertise in the kitchen, sure.