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Biodynamic vs Organic vs Natural vs Orange (oxidative) and Orange (skin contact) wines


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#1 voyager

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 03:29 PM

We seem to be throwing these terms around with not much agreement of their meanings. I would love to hear from some experts who can put each term in context.

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#2 Orik

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 04:54 PM

That's exactly the point.
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#3 voyager

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 05:28 PM

Okay,   I'll provide a point of departure by offering my understanding, begging correction from others.

 

 

Biodynamic refers to grapes grown with strict adherence to accepted Biodynamic standards, cow horns, lunar influences, no inorganic or pesticide treatment etc.

 

Organic refers to grapes grown without pesticide or inorganic fertilizers.

 

     Wines from both of these standards of grape can be made by natural or usual winemaking methods.

 

 

Natural refers to wine that has been made with little or no human intervention, i.e., additives or filtration.   

     Natural wine may be made from bio, organic or ordinary grapes.  

    

Many wines from Beaujolais have traditionally been made in this style while exhibiting few or none of the "cloud and fizz" we attribute to natural wines.    There are many other areas and producers who make more typical-drinking wines by the natural method.   

 

 

Oxidative orange wine is ordinary wine that has been allowed controlled oxidation which results in a complex,  sometimes sherry-like, sometimes just musty. deeply colored wine.

 

 

Skin-contact orange wine is made by allowing longer skin and seed contact with the grape juice resulting in a bold, robust and deeply colored wine.

 

 


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#4 joethefoodie

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 07:02 PM

Food & Wine weighed in (sort of) earlier this year...https://www.foodandw...-wine-explained

 

As did others...https://www.guildsom...wines-explained

 

And one of our favorite sellers, Chamber Street Wines...https://www.chambers...iodynamic-wines



#5 Guest_Ptipois_*

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 05:30 PM

Okay,   I'll provide a point of departure by offering my understanding, begging correction from others.

 

 

Biodynamic refers to grapes grown with strict adherence to accepted Biodynamic standards, cow horns, lunar influences, no inorganic or pesticide treatment etc.

 

Natural refers to wine that has been made with little or no human intervention, i.e., additives or filtration.   

     Natural wine may be made from bio, organic or ordinary grapes.  

    

 

Natural wines are based on organic grapes at the very least. Remember Pierre Jancou's definition: "More than organic".

Winemakers who claim to make natural wines out of non-organic grapes are a lot of BS. A situation that's made possible by the nonexistence of appropriate labels and charts. "Yeah I don't have the certification but actually I'm more organic than most." Well, get a certification then, so that the customers know what they're buying.

 

Biodynamic and nature are not very frequently found together. Probably because biodynamy implies quite a lot of intervention in the vineyard, albeit "natural".

"Strict adherence", that depends. Strict adherence to official biodynamy labels like Demeter or Biodyvin, yes. Other winemakers borrow some practices from biodynamy without working under any label. Biodynamy, after all, is a number of ancient agrarian practices collected by Steiner from farmers. Winemakers choose to follow whichever they please and their methods are highly personal. In that case, the connection with natural wines is more evident.

And even "vignerons natures" are a mixed bag, i.e. some, like Frank Cornelissen, do use filtration.



#6 Orik

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 09:42 PM

Ok, if Jancou is your reference I can see where you'd get the cocaine story  :D


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#7 Wilfrid

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:36 PM

This is obvious, but where it’s not mandatory to comply with standards issued and enforced by a certification authority the result is freedom to produce interesting stuff, plus no agreed definitions.

Whether it’s wine or adtech.

#8 Orik

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 11:05 PM

 

Biodynamic and nature are not very frequently found together. 

 

l'Octavin, Riffault, many other examples. Which is again the point against labels - for every statement there will be well known counter examples, and labels will always be subverted by business to produce wines that are compliant in the worst possible way.

 

Fortunately it's pretty easy to tell what isn't natural wine. 


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#9 balex

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 07:39 AM

Orange wine I think of as just making red wine but with white grapes.

#10 Steve R.

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 12:46 PM

Interestingly enough (to me at least) is a variable that Rich & others haven't really mentioned when talking about Natural wines. Most of the talk has been about the taste, the fizziness, the cloudiness; however, a conversation has sprung up on CH that describes a physical reaction (illness) caused by some extreme wines for one poster (a wine blogger at that). Apparently, the absence of sulphites may well significantly physically affect some people. Gotta admit, I’ve never even considered whether I’d have a reaction to drinking wine that doesnt get “interventions”. Thoughts?

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#11 Orik

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 01:06 PM

There's a chance you'd get sick if, for example, the winemaker was sick and some of her bacteria managed to puke some toxin into the wine before the acid killed it. Some people can also get sick from generally harmless bacteria in large numbers because they only eat cooked food and are just not used to it.

But overall it should be nowhere nearly as risky as cheese, meat, oysters, or romaine lettuce.

P.s. I once found a spider in a bottle from l'anglore so I guess if you're allergic to spiders that can be an issue too.
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#12 voyager

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 01:55 PM

But overall it should be nowhere nearly as risky as cheese, meat, oysters, or romaine lettuce.

This is sound.

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#13 Behemoth

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 08:21 AM

Biodynamic and nature are not very frequently found together. Probably because biodynamy implies quite a lot of intervention in the vineyard, albeit "natural".

 

 

Thanks, this clears up something I was confused about. We get Demeter wines quite often (why? because our neighborhood wine dealer specialises in them), but I've never experienced the cloudiness or barnyard issues. Makes sense. 


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#14 Orik

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 12:38 PM

Demeter guarantees the wine is cholesterol free.
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#15 Anthony Bonner

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 01:13 PM


Biodynamic and nature are not very frequently found together. Probably because biodynamy implies quite a lot of intervention in the vineyard, albeit "natural".


Thanks, this clears up something I was confused about. We get Demeter wines quite often (why? because out neighborhood wine dealer specialises in them), but I've never experienced the cloudiness or barnyard issues. Makes sense.

I don't think this is a correct statement. You could easily make a Demeter certified wine that's is unfined and cidery.

I suspect the real issue is that Demeter classification and biodynamy are generally associated with the German speaking wine world which doesn't appear to have glommed on to what is essentially a stylistic choice.

Certainly someone like CRB were biodynamic in all but having the certification.

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