144 replies to this topic

[omnivorette]

http://www.westchest...wifaqfinal1.pdf

Can my child consume alcohol in a bar/restaurant if I am present and I purchase the alcohol
for him/her?
No. Bars and restaurants are licensed by the New York State Liquor Authority, and the law does
not allow consumption of alcoholic beverages by persons under the age of 21, even under their
parents’ supervision. The bar and restaurant owner may also be liable if a patron under the age of 21
leaves the establishment intoxicated and causes property damage, personal injury or the death of a
person.
(Alcoholic Beverage Control Law §§ 65, 65-c; Penal Law § 260.20(2); General Obligations Law
§11-100)


Is my child allowed to enter a bar or restaurant serving alcohol without a parent being
present?
It is illegal for the owner of a bar or restaurant serving alcohol to allow a child under the age of 16
to enter the premises unaccompanied by a parent, except under certain very limited circumstances.
A child age 16 or older may enter a bar or restaurant unaccompanied by a parent but is not
permitted to consume alcohol on the premises. If caught drinking, your child may be issued a
summons to appear in court, and can be fined or receive other criminal penalties.
(Alcoholic Beverage Control Law § 65-c; Penal Law § 260.21(1))

[omnivorette]

Thinking about this...been looking up things on the SLA website.

"Can a customer bring in his or her own liquor/wine/beer into a licensed restaurant or bar?
Yes, with the approval of the licensee and as long as the alcohol product is covered under the license in effect and the patron removes the unconsumed alcoholic beverage upon departing the licensed premises."

This means that when a restaurant has a application pending and does not yet have a license, they are NOT allowed to permit BYO. So by doing so, they are taking a big risk. If a restaurant were to be spot-checked while their application was pending, and found to allow BYO, they might not get their license at all. Stupid risk to take.

I don't know what the law is for places that do not have licenses or applications pending. Like Ali's, or many Chinese restaurants, or Sri before they started serving, etc etc. They're not licensees or applicants, so I suppose they SLA doesn't have jurisdiction over them? I don't know. Will do some poking around.

[omnivorette]

"In NYC, BYO fans may unwittingly be engaging in an illicit activity.
Though the cost of obtaining a beer and wine license in New York City is relatively reasonable (less than $1,000 before legal fees), actually getting a license is no mean feat due to state Liquor Authority restrictions and community board concerns. Mark B. Stumer, an attorney who represents a number of New York restaurants, says that when owners' applications are rejected, "everyone thinks, 'ok, I could have people bring their own.'" Not so – at least not technically. BYO is illegal in New York City for restaurants without a license to serve beer and wine. (Licensed restaurants can legally allow BYO, but they may choose not to permit it.) Just ask Bob Giraldi and Jason Hennings, whose attempts to obtain a liquor license for European Union, the gastropub they hoped to open in the East Village this past spring, faced a number of stumbling blocks. After first being denied a license by the state, largely due to pressure from the Village community board, EU briefly operated as a BYO – until the authorities informed the owners the policy was illegal. The restaurant shut down in the interim, but following months of petitioning and negotiating with the board, it finally nabbed a beer and wine license and will reopen in September.

Though BYO crackdowns aren't the norm, they do happen. Nicky Perry, co-owner of the West Village British cafe Tea & Sympathy, says she let patrons bring their own for more than a decade, until she "got some stinking letter from the Liquor Authority" last year telling her to stop. "I was really shocked – it's ridiculous," Perry says. Her customers would surely raise a glass to that – if they could fill it.

The twist: Restaurants that seat fewer than 20 are permitted to offer BYO even without a beer and wine license."


So Ali is okay - he's small enough. But lots of places that seat more than 20, and have no license, are breaking the law and taking a risk. Given the current climate in the city and the crackdowns by the SLA and the community boards...we may see some unlicensed places forced to stop allowing BYO.

[Rail Paul]

The restaurant may also decide to check the terms of their liability insurance policy, as well. In NJ, at least, most licensed restaurants have an alcohol endorsement on their policy to offer expanded liability coverage.

Opening another bottle for a table of guests who are already intoxicated could expose an unlicensed property to some legal risk, if an accident ensued, or a fight opened up, etc. Low, but not impossible risks.

[BryanZ]

This is getting wayyyy off topic, but I just thought I'd say that second law is a bit much. If a restaurant that happened to serve wine tried to keep me out because of my age I would certainly not return. Sometimes a bit of civil disobedience is needed to make our world rational. If a 15 year old kid can't eat by himself in a restaurant that just happens to serve alcohol, I call for a revolution.

[BryanZ]

Why should the restaurant risk its license, or a fine, just to serve an underage drinker? That would be a foolish business decision, in my view.

Though the prevalence of it among high-end restaurants seems to suggest that it is a wise or at least permissible business decision. This doesn't change the fact that it's technically illegal, but restaurants want the alcohol upsell on every table they can get. They also don't want to possibly offend customers. If enforcement agents regularly levied huge fines I assure you that they would card everyone. That they don't means that there's more chance for profit with limited risk. I will be honest, 90% of the time I don't order wine when I'm dining out alone (though almost always with my parents) and I still ALWAYS have it pushed on me. Again, I return to the Cru example where wine was being pushed so hard that I felt the need to aplogize to the captain for not ordering it. If there is hypocrisy in this issue, much of it falls on the restaurants and the industry itself.

ETA: In fact the worst part of my dining experience usually comes at the begining. Not over the stress of being carded, but over the stress of having to summarily page through the wine list but then not order anything because I'm afraid of being carded. Really I'm in a lose-lose-lose-lose situation. I can order wine and possibly get carded and create stress between me and the captain. I can not order wine and seem like a cheapskate and deny the waiter a higher tip which I would happily leave (I tip roughly on pctg.). I can make up some excuse about being underage which usually creates more stress at the table (see the Cru example). If I do order and am served, then we've got all kinds of laws being broken. Yay.

[omnivorette]

Take a look at the number of people who die in alcohol related car accidents. And more specifically, involving drivers who are under 21. Or better yet, talk to one of their mothers. Then get back to me about "civil disobedience."

(And by the way Bryan, this is not eG. Off-topic tangents are not against the rules here. We just split them off into their own threads when warranted)

Admins: I started a thread called NYS liquor laws in the Bars forum below - feel free to move the last few posts on this thread down there, if you want to.

[omnivorette]

Why should the restaurant risk its license, or a fine, just to serve an underage drinker? That would be a foolish business decision, in my view.

Though the prevalence of it among high-end restaurants seems to suggest that it is a wise or at least permissible business decision. This doesn't change the fact that it's technically illegal, but restaurants want the alcohol upsell on every table they can get. They also don't want to possibly offend customers. If enforcement agents regularly enforced huge fines I assure you that they would card everyone. That they don't means that there's more chance for profit with limited risk. I will be honest, 90% of the time I don't order wine when I'm dining out alone (though almost always with my parents) and I still ALWAYS have it pushed on me. Again, I return to the Cru example where wine was being pushed so hard that I felt the need to aplogize to the captain for not ordering it. If there is hypocrisy in this issue, much of it falls on the restaurants and the industry itself.

That's all well and good, until you happen to be the unlucky restaurateur who gets their license suspended for repeat violations. Then I'd like to see what they have to say about serving underage patrons.

[Rail Paul]

Why should the restaurant risk its license, or a fine, just to serve an underage drinker? That would be a foolish business decision, in my view.

Though the prevalence of it among high-end restaurants seems to suggest that it is a wise or at least permissible business decision. This doesn't change the fact that it's technically illegal, but restaurants want the alcohol upsell on every table they can get. They also don't want to possibly offend customers. If enforcement agents regularly enforced huge fines I assure you that they would card everyone. That they don't means that there's more chance for profit with limited risk. I will be honest, 90% of the time I don't order wine when I'm dining out alone (though almost always with my parents) and I still ALWAYS have it pushed on me. Again, I return to the Cru example where wine was being pushed so hard that I felt the need to aplogize to the captain for not ordering it. If there is hypocrisy in this issue, much of it falls on the restaurants and the industry itself.

That's all well and good, until you happen to be the unlucky restaurateur who gets their license suspended for repeat violations. Then I'd like to see what they have to say about serving underage patrons.

The NY SLA actually inspected, and closed down a few bars following the murder of the teenage girl from Bergen County last year. The usual for a first offense with minors is 15 days closed and $5,000 fine, IIRC. Once the heat was off, the checking stopped...

[omnivorette]

I can not order wine and seem like a cheapskate and deny the waiter a higher tip which I would happily leave (I tip roughly on pctg.). I can make up some excuse about being underage which usually creates more stress at the table (see the Cru example). If I do order and am served, then we've got all kinds of laws being broken. Yay.

People who don't order wine are not "cheapskates." They are simply patrons who aren't drinking alcohol. If a restaurant has a problem with that, or gives you an attitude about that, well than that's really their problem and that's a service issue. If you feel like a "cheapskate" for not ordering wine, that's your own issue. I've dined out many times and not ordered any booze, just because I didn't feel like drinking on a particular occasion. And I don't think I've ever sensed any negative attitude about it at all.

And nobody's stopping you from tipping more, if you want to.

And being underage is not an "excuse" - it's the truth.

[omnivorette]

The NY SLA actually inspected, and closed down a few bars following the murder of the teenage girl from Bergen County last year. The usual for a first offense with minors is 15 days closed and $5,000 fine, IIRC. Once the heat was off, the checking stopped...

15 days closed is a lot of lost revenue. Not to mention having to probably continue to pay people during that time, etc etc. In my view...not worth the risk to keep the tiny number of underage wine drinkers in an upscale restaurant happy. And the money lost on those few bottles of wine that they don't sell to those underage patrons....peanuts compared to the risk.

Sure, I suppose that inspections of this type in these kinds of restaurants are rare. But all it takes is one...

[BryanZ]

I would like to discuss the law pertaining to barring children under the age 16 from entering a restaurant that serves alcohol without parent supervision. Omnivorette or an admin, if you'd be so kind to provide the same passage you did before, it might be easier for other readers.

Anyway, without going off on a libertarian-inspried rant, I would like to say that laws like that are completely inane. Like many laws, the motivation may have been sound, but what ever happened to civil liberty (I'm trying to restrain myself, really). I fully support an individual proprietor's right to bar children from his/her establishment, but for the government to say that a high schooler can't go to TGI Friday's with a bunch of friends is totally completely insane.

Whether it's civil disobedience, greed, or ignorance I now hold a special place in my heart for those restaurants who let kids eat unaccompanied. Laws like this were made to be broken. In fact, many alcohol-related laws were made to be broken. I'm pretty sure you can't transport alcohol across state lines. Give me a break. That means no one from NJ could BYO into the city. The 21 year old drinking age in this country is an insult to our youth. From personal experience I can say that binge drinking on college campuses is so bad because most students have limited experiences with alcohol throughout their high school and teenage years. I firmly believe that many of the alcohol-induced, bad decisions that young individuals make are directly related to the bizzare stigma this country places on alcoholic beverages. We need better education from parents and society rather than increased legislation.

[omnivorette]

Get back to me when you're old enough to be the parent of an adolescent. I don't want an unaccompanied-by-an-adult 15 year old in an alcohol-serving establishment. It's all too easy for a young server to slip a kid (or worse, a group of kids) a beer or some shots of vodka. The law serves to protect, in this case, and it's warranted.

I think you're wrong about the state lines thing. You can bring booze from NJ to NY, for example, as long as you're of age and the containers are unopened.

I agree with you about the binge drinking being in part related to the stigma attached to drinking, and the lack of exposure that many kids have to "normal" drinking.

But that does NOT mean that we shouldn't have laws to protect kids, and people who are at risk from those (drinking) kids. Again - look at the number of people who die in alcohol related car accidents with underage drivers. 21 is not an "insult" - unfortunately, it's necessity, given what goes on in reality.

And I agree with you about the need for increased education from parents and society. But there's nothing stopping that from happening simultaneously with increased legal protections. When we see a significant decrease in underage drinking and the tragic consequences that result from it, then perhaps the laws could be relaxed. But that ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

I do not want 15 year olds in bars without an adult. It puts me (and everybody) at risk. Many laws exist to protect the public, and that's not a bad thing in this case.

[BryanZ]

I can not order wine and seem like a cheapskate and deny the waiter a higher tip which I would happily leave (I tip roughly on pctg.). I can make up some excuse about being underage which usually creates more stress at the table (see the Cru example). If I do order and am served, then we've got all kinds of laws being broken. Yay.

People who don't order wine are not "cheapskates." They are simply patrons who aren't drinking alcohol. If a restaurant has a problem with that, or gives you an attitude about that, well than that's really their problem and that's a service issue. If you feel like a "cheapskate" for not ordering wine, that's your own issue. I've dined out many times and not ordered any booze, just because I didn't feel like drinking on a particular occasion. And I don't think I've ever sensed any negative attitude about it at all.

And nobody's stopping you from tipping more, if you want to.

And being underage is not an "excuse" - it's the truth.

I believe in tipping for service. If I get nice wine service, some solid recommendations, etc, I'll tip heavily. If those services are not offered, I won't tip on it. That's just me.

I will admit that I've worked hard to battle something of an inferiority complex when it comes to dining out. Anyone who dines out frequently knows that certain types of customers get different levels of service. Being the youngest party in pretty much every restaurant we go to means that we have to extend ourselves a little more to guarantee a truly top-notch experience. I know people who work in industry who get a little peeved when a party doesnt order alcohol, and I don't blame them because they are missing out on a larger tip. A good server won't show it, of course, but since I'm kind of in the service industry I want my server to be happy because that will make my experience better. Again, 90% of the time I don't order wine and instead garner my servers interest with an active engagement in the food. If I throw down for a $200 bottle of wine I'm sure my server will pay closer attention the table for the meal; I hope that by showing interest in the food he will do the same. Unfortunately, this isn't aways the case.

Often times servers don't want to hear the truth.

[omnivorette]

I understand. If you get flack for not ordering booze, complain to the FOH. And that's especially true because you're under age - but it's also true for anyone who doesn't order booze for whatever reason.