[Nathan]

Part of the problem might be that when I eat in US cities outside of NY, SF, Chicago and Vegas I find that people get excited about dishes and combinations that are a little dated.

There is no such thing as dated cuisine, except in a few people's minds, but I do agree that very few North American cities have a restaurant that would crack the top 30 in New York. I think Susur Lee's experience is instructive. I liked Shang much better than the critics, but even I did not think it was a top-30 place, yet in Toronto he was (and is) the top of the heap. And Toronto is a cosmopolitan city.

well, we're in general agreement then. By dated I mean being excited about flavors or ingredients or combinations that aren't really novel. Sweetbreads or fennel or Panna cotta or something.

[Nathan]

I mean, would anybody get offended if I said, "aside from possibly Chicago, the theater in New York tends to be much better than in any other American city"?

Or would you just take it as a self-evident truth, one of the reasons that people put up with living in New York?

LA too. But yeah..(and though Chicago has theater that equals the best in NY, NY has More of it)

[Wilfrid1]

Not that I'm accusing him of cloning -- I hope it's clear that I think he's a genuine talent whom I respect -- do you know what his restaurant in the Miami Beach Setai was like?

I haven't eaten at the Setai, but I've attended events there. It's a remarkably opulent hotel, and the restaurant prices were very, very expensive.

[Wilfrid1]

Part of the problem might be that when I eat in US cities outside of NY, SF, Chicago and Vegas I find that people get excited about dishes and combinations that are a little dated.

There is no such thing as dated cuisine, except in a few people's minds, but I do agree that very few North American cities have a restaurant that would crack the top 30 in New York. I think Susur Lee's experience is instructive. I liked Shang much better than the critics, but even I did not think it was a top-30 place, yet in Toronto he was (and is) the top of the heap. And Toronto is a cosmopolitan city.

Without disagreeing with your general point, that's not the best example, as Shang is a much less ambitious and luxurious restaurant than Susur was. The New York restaurant which most reminds me of Susur in its heyday is Corton.

[Sneakeater]

you said it was bland. bland beef sucks.

It was a fillet.

Have you ever had a beef fillet that wasn't bland? That cut is bland (and mushy) by definition. Hergatt's whole purpose for offering it must be to use it as a basis for his spicing -- as in every successful dish that includes it, it's used as a basis for the introduction of some other forms of flavoring.

Now I don't think it works in this case, because I didn't much like the spices, at least in the context of this dish. But I wouldn't say it sucked.

Also, to be clear, the beef as served isn't bland. If anything, my complaint is that, with the Thai pepper, it's too spicy.

[Suzanne F]

I mean, would anybody get offended if I said, "aside from possibly Chicago, the theater in New York tends to be much better than in any other American city"?

Or would you just take it as a self-evident truth, one of the reasons that people put up with living in New York?

An empiricist might, unless you were starting from the premise that you had seen all theater offerings in all other cities. But if you were working off having seen a few (or no) shows in other cities, then the empiricist would indeed be offended. (Try Louisville for the Humana Festival, or Long Wharf.)

What can I say? I'm an empiricist. And I also believe that the only competition that matters is trying to improve oneself.

And anyway, I thought you didn't much like theater. So why listen to you on that subject?

[Sneakeater]

(Try Louisville for the Humana Festival, or Long Wharf.)

The existence of good regional theater outside New York -- in Louisville's case, a festival that takes place once a year -- doesn't disprove the superiority of theater in New York (you must concede sheer quantity, if nothing else).

Ask anyone in Louisville or New Haven, if they had to choose between theater in those places or theater in New York, which would it be? I don't think their answer would be much in doubt.

When Daniel Sullivan started working here, it wasn't like, "wow, we're so lucky this guy from Seattle has decided to work in New York." It was more like, "hope his work will translate here." (As, of course, it did, in spades.)

(And anyway, I thought you didn't much like theater. So why listen to you on that subject?

That's weird, Suzanne. You must have me confused with someone else. I must go to at least four or five theatrical performances a month. (Honestly.)

[oakapple]

Without disagreeing with your general point, that's not the best example, as Shang is a much less ambitious and luxurious restaurant than Susur was. The New York restaurant which most reminds me of Susur in its heyday is Corton.

Just to bring this back on topic, what I find remarkable about SHO Shaun Hergatt is that they did not compromise the cuisine because of the economy, although they did compromise the price: $69 prix fixe is astonishingly low, given what they are trying to do. A year or two ago, it would have been $10–15 more.

Even at Corton, which I love, it's pretty obvious that Paul Liebrandt is holding back. Of course, we have the indelible memory of what he did at Gilt. For Shaun Hergatt and Susur Lee, most New Yorkers have no basis for comparison.

Susur Lee hasn't said much, but I am fairly certain that Shang was originally intended to be a New York version of Susur. When the economy went south, he blinked. I am not sure whether that entirely explains the critics' response. The more casual a restaurant is, the more today's critics tend to like it. Frank Bruni has given two stars to casual Asian places on numerous occasions, most recently at Fatty Crab. Even in its dialed down form, Lee's cuisine left the critics cold.

[Sneakeater]

Just to bring this back on topic, what I find remarkable about SHO Shaun Hergatt is that they did not compromise the cuisine because of the economy, although they did compromise the price: $69 prix fixe is astonishingly low, given what they are trying to do. A year or two ago, it would have been $10–15 more.

I really have to agree with this very strongly.

You look at the price* and you look at what's on your plate, and you think, what did they compromise? And you just can't see it.

______________________________________________________
* Of course, we bar diners don't get the benefit of this bargain.

[oakapple]

By the way, there's also a two-course prix-fixe for $57 that excludes dessert. Most PF-format restaurants don't give you that option.

[nuxvomica]

Not that I'm accusing him of cloning -- I hope it's clear that I think he's a genuine talent whom I respect -- do you know what his restaurant in the Miami Beach Setai was like?

I haven't eaten at the Setai, but I've attended events there. It's a remarkably opulent hotel, and the restaurant prices were very, very expensive.

yeah, the Setai is pretty impressive and the restaurant big on design.

only had lunch in the courtyard once, can't imagine it was his menu. small and they were out of the two interesting dishes so we ate something, no idea what. they were also out of interesting wines by the glass, blaming it on some visiting athletes, iirc.

the setup was very serene, we needed that to escape the chodorow places our friends dragged us through the night before (and table 8 as well), all kobe sliders and pinot grigio

[Lex]

As an example, take my home borough of Brooklyn. "Locals" get excited about the restaurant Saul. But if Saul opened in Manhattan, it would seem unexciting, unchallenging, and second rate. It would not be anything like the major place some Brooklyn locals claim.

I think that's a valid point. Usually the people making those claims don't have much dining experience. If Saul was located in Manhattan I don't think it would have earned it's Michelin star. They were marking on the curve. That said, I like the restaurant very much. While it wouldn't be a major place in Manhattan it would still do good business in the right neighborhood.

[Sneakeater]

Totally. I don't disagree with you at all.

[g.johnson]

let's be blunt. Outside of NY, Chicago, SF, London, Tokyo, Paris and Spain, the best restaurant in a city is almost never on the NY playing field.

WTF? Is New York is the only place where diners care about what they eat, and chefs only care if they have competition? That's nonsense.

No, statistics.

The best restaurant of a random sample of 1000 is likely to be better than the best restaurant from a sample of 100.

[Wilfrid1]

Even in its dialed down form, Lee's cuisine left the critics cold.

To remain off-topic, the cuisine presented at Shang was easy for the critics to pigeon-hole and dismiss as some kind of Chinese fusion. At Susur, the cuisine was much more evidently that of a chef with formal French training: Shang is not just a cheaper version of Susur. My only point is that, had it been possible to transfer precisely the Susur experience to New York, it would not have been unreasonable to regard it as in the top thirty New York restaurants.