[robyn]

To whoever is claiming fashion and technology are not changing food very rapidly, I propose taking a look at the Time Life Foods of The World series.

I have some of those books - and I think you'll find a lot of classical recipes in them. Like Coq au Vin in the Cooking of Provincial France (a recipe I've prepared many times in the almost 40 years since I bought the series). You're not exactly talking Sandra Lee recipes or anything like that. So are you saying that Coq au Vin is "out of style"? It is certainly an old dish - but one worth eating IMO. Robyn

where do you get Coq?

Apart from my house - nowhere these days. Any restaurant that would be serving it where I live would be buying it frozen at Costco. Except this week the chef at our golf club (who's no slouch - he started as a sous chef under Bruno Menard at the RC Buckhead - and has trained at other good places) - is doing a French golden oldies week in honor of Bastille Day. And one of the dishes he's doing is Coq au Vin. Hard dish to do in a place like a golf club (too easy to overcook the white meat over a 3-4 hour serving period - luckily I eat dark meat). I'll see how he does.

Along these lines - someone up thread (can't read the message now) mentioned that any chef can turn out 200 falling off the bones meat dishes with crisy outsides. So why don't they? A true braise - the browning - then the simmering - is a real PITA for a home cook - I only do them in the winter here in north Florida - when it's both cool/cold enough to spend an afternoon inside - and cool/cold enough to enjoy the stuff. But I rarely see this kind of thing in higher end places. Indeed - if someone could show me how to crisp the outside out of a piece of beef for pot roasting - or the outside of a bunch of pieces of chicken for coq au vin - without splattering grease all over the kitchen and myself - I would be much obliged.

Instead - the emphasis is on sous vide this - and sous vide that - which does have the virtues of being easy to prepare in advance - not much in the way of cleanup - etc. But it pretty much lacks soul in my book. And when I looked at some pictures of the famous 65 minute sous vide egg on line (Andres'?) - well the yolk was solid. Like something my mother and MIL would have cooked (proteins like eggs were almost always overcooked in the 50's - and an overcooked egg isn't any classier IMO because it's cooked sous vide by a famous chef as opposed to my mother or MIL cooking it in a fry pan).

I love trying new things - and - when they are great - I'm in heaven. E.g., my first Robuchon sea urchin decades ago was fabulous - and his quail egg on top - not cooked sous vide - was perfect. But change for the sake of change - well that is really old hat these days IMO - even in the fashion industry (I am not a particularly fashionable person but I do enjoy reading Bazaar and keeping up with fashion trends - the current fashion trend in these recessionary times - in a general sense - is investing money in classics - and then mixing them up with less expensive "of the moment" things). I'm not sure how that translates exactly into food terms. Because - when I buy a pair of pants - I can keep them for a long time. When I eat a meal - it's gone.

Anyway - putting things in little plastic bags and cooking them in water - how is that really any different conceptually than frozen TV dinners in the sense that it is merely "convenience food" (which is why it started as an industrial cooking method for feeding large numbers of people)? BTW - I do enjoy some foams and gels (they work especially well on a light dish in a warm climate IMO). But I never met a foam or gel that would take the place of a great sauce. Robyn

[Sneakeater]

You are actually able to buy rooster?

[g.johnson]

ETA: Look at this way - if I invited you all round to dinner and served pate, coq au vin and cheese, you'd think "Oh, regular old French food." If I served turtle soup with Madeira, steak Diane and peach Melba, you'd say "What possessed you to recreate this strange old vintage menu, Wilfrid, are your meds okay?"

Not if they tasted good, I wouldn't.

The example I was thinking of was more recent -- salmon mousse (a component of the Nico dish above). A staple of the 70s dinner party which would look at best ironic on a modern menu. But when we had it at the Altneharie Inn about ten years ago it was sublime.

I'm not sure what I think about this. There are things that seem dated but were never any good (anything in aspic except pork pies); those that may be dated but which are good (salmon mousse); those that are good but with which one has become over familiar (seared foie gras).

[robyn]

sure but how does that contradict what is being said here?

It would seem inconsistent to blame food for being dated whilst praising food for being modern since it is a common quality of both that is at once the object of blame and praise.

I don't think so. Some manners of cooking endure, others don't: those that endure were modern once. I don't believe that being at some point fashionable guarantees becoming dated.

I am sure I could think of some examples if I tried.

I can think of one fairly recently example. The Wolfgang Puck style pizza (i.e., pizza with "anything goes" on top). I thought it would be dead by now. And it is - if you accept being sold frozen in Costco as proof of death. But what is one of the hottest restaurants in Los Angeles today? - Pizzeria Mozza. I don't eat much in the way of pizza. Any similar place in New York? Robyn

[Behemoth]

ETA: Look at this way - if I invited you all round to dinner and served pate, coq au vin and cheese, you'd think "Oh, regular old French food." If I served turtle soup with Madeira, steak Diane and peach Melba, you'd say "What possessed you to recreate this strange old vintage menu, Wilfrid, are your meds okay?"

Not if they tasted good, I wouldn't.

The example I was thinking of was more recent -- salmon mousse (a component of the Nico dish above). A staple of the 70s dinner party which would look at best ironic on a modern menu. But when we had it at the Altneharie Inn about ten years ago it was sublime.

I'm not sure what I think about this. There are things that seem dated but were never any good (anything in aspic except pork pies); those that may be dated but which are good (salmon mousse); those that are good but with which one has become over familiar (seared foie gras).

I have to disagree about aspic. I've had a few recently that made me a convert.

[g.johnson]

ETA: Look at this way - if I invited you all round to dinner and served pate, coq au vin and cheese, you'd think "Oh, regular old French food." If I served turtle soup with Madeira, steak Diane and peach Melba, you'd say "What possessed you to recreate this strange old vintage menu, Wilfrid, are your meds okay?"

Not if they tasted good, I wouldn't.

The example I was thinking of was more recent -- salmon mousse (a component of the Nico dish above). A staple of the 70s dinner party which would look at best ironic on a modern menu. But when we had it at the Altneharie Inn about ten years ago it was sublime.

I'm not sure what I think about this. There are things that seem dated but were never any good (anything in aspic except pork pies); those that may be dated but which are good (salmon mousse); those that are good but with which one has become over familiar (seared foie gras).

I have to disagree about aspic. I've had a few recently that made me a convert.

You're probably right -- what could be wrong with beef flavoured jelly? -- but the vegetable decorations that always go with it. Urgh.

ETA:

[The Scream]

Kimchi will never go out of style.

[Lex]

Don't forget the Reuniti to start.

And some Blue Nun.

[yvonne johnson]

One of the functions of cuisine, like any other cultural product, is to articulate social differences.
As cultural trends get diffused broadly through the culture, there will be a demand for innovations so that people can express
the fact that they are, say, elite well-educated urbanites. Restaurateurs are clearly going to meet that demand.

The old trends will thus be perceived as dated, as they no longer fulfill their previous function.

I guess that is true: all things cultural "articulate social differences". The problem is that there appears to be a limited range of innovations. Fashion: skinny jeans were great 20 years ago; ugh, terrible a few years ago; now the rage.

[Behemoth]

ETA: Look at this way - if I invited you all round to dinner and served pate, coq au vin and cheese, you'd think "Oh, regular old French food." If I served turtle soup with Madeira, steak Diane and peach Melba, you'd say "What possessed you to recreate this strange old vintage menu, Wilfrid, are your meds okay?"

Not if they tasted good, I wouldn't.

The example I was thinking of was more recent -- salmon mousse (a component of the Nico dish above). A staple of the 70s dinner party which would look at best ironic on a modern menu. But when we had it at the Altneharie Inn about ten years ago it was sublime.

I'm not sure what I think about this. There are things that seem dated but were never any good (anything in aspic except pork pies); those that may be dated but which are good (salmon mousse); those that are good but with which one has become over familiar (seared foie gras).

I have to disagree about aspic. I've had a few recently that made me a convert.

You're probably right -- what could be wrong with beef flavoured jelly? -- but the vegetable decorations that always go with it. Urgh.

ETA:

Seriously.

[Orik]

When I think of out-of-date cuisine, I don't have in mind standard dishes like coq au vin, cassoulet, spaghetti carbonara - okay, add your own examples. People still eat those dishes. They're not going to grab attention - unless chefs "re-invent" them, as they like to do - but it wouldn't seem quaint or an affectation to prepare them, eat them, or even offer them on an appropriate menu.

Out-of-date cuisine is more like... sherry soup, green turtle soup, veal Marengo, steak Diane, broiled baby turkey, vol-au-vents...okay, I really will get Vincent's menus out later.

ETA: Look at this way - if I invited you all round to dinner and served pate, coq au vin and cheese, you'd think "Oh, regular old French food." If I served turtle soup with Madeira, steak Diane and peach Melba, you'd say "What possessed you to recreate this strange old vintage menu, Wilfrid, are your meds okay?"

That is one kind of outdated cuisine, but some classics were created to solve a problem (what do we do with this tough old Coq) and are now unreasonable because not only is the problem gone, but the world has gone in the opposite direction (no old coq, lots and lots of soft and tasteless young hens)

[splinky]

“I was at this restaurant. The sign said "Breakfast Anytime." So I ordered French Toast in the Renaissance.”

Steven Wright

[robyn]

When I think of out-of-date cuisine, I don't have in mind standard dishes like coq au vin, cassoulet, spaghetti carbonara - okay, add your own examples. People still eat those dishes. They're not going to grab attention - unless chefs "re-invent" them, as they like to do - but it wouldn't seem quaint or an affectation to prepare them, eat them, or even offer them on an appropriate menu.

Out-of-date cuisine is more like... sherry soup, green turtle soup, veal Marengo, steak Diane, broiled baby turkey, vol-au-vents...okay, I really will get Vincent's menus out later.

ETA: Look at this way - if I invited you all round to dinner and served pate, coq au vin and cheese, you'd think "Oh, regular old French food." If I served turtle soup with Madeira, steak Diane and peach Melba, you'd say "What possessed you to recreate this strange old vintage menu, Wilfrid, are your meds okay?"

Don't reckon you'll be serving real turtle soup anytime soon unless you want to get arrested - protected species. I looked up steak Diane (didn't have a clue) - and it didn't sound repulsive (even though I am not much of a steak eater). If you called it something different - like steak with shallot and wine sauce - no one would bat an eye. As for peach melba - that is still served in the south all the time (although - since it is easier to get fresh ripe fragrant peaches now than 50 years ago - slightly macerating the peaches would probably work a lot better than the heavy syrup incarnation IMO - although you'd probably have to wrestle Paula Deen to the floor to get her to accept that).

Veal Marengo is apparently a classic recipe from Provence. Here is Julia Child's version. My own impression is veal doesn't go with tomatoes. But maybe in Provence - everything goes with tomatoes .

A broiled baby turkey. No need in the south (even if one could find a baby turkey). Hearty souls here fry theirs (and more than a few burn down their houses in the process - not my cup of tea).

Had to look up vol-au-vent too. It's defined as: "a light pastry shell filled with a ragout of meat or fish". That covers a lot of ground - including things like empanadas and samosas. Just change the name - and - voila - you are up to date.

I think sometimes you have to go behind the label - the name - and get to the guts of what you're cooking. The ingredients - the techniques. It's a little like golf - you learn/have this stroke - you use it with a different club to do a completely different shot. FWIW - that's one reason I like Alton Brown cooking shows. He shows the common threads in terms of various ingredients and cooking techniques. Robyn

[Orik]

Along these lines - someone up thread (can't read the message now) mentioned that any chef can turn out 200 falling off the bones meat dishes with crisy outsides. So why don't they?

They absolutely do. New Yorkers who have not had such a preparation at Pamplona, Blue Hill, Ssam Bar, to name a few - raise your hand.

Of course some asadors in Spain can do the same because they have really young lamb or piglets, but that just doesn't scale.

[Wilfrid1]

That is one kind of outdated cuisine, but some classics were created to solve a problem (what do we do with this tough old Coq) and are now unreasonable because not only is the problem gone, but the world has gone in the opposite direction (no old coq, lots and lots of soft and tasteless young hens)

Cuts both ways. Who needs to smoke or salt things any more? Well, actually, they often taste better if you do.