247 replies to this topic

[Sneakeater]

That's why I think the issue is a bit more complicated.

Let's back into it. (Much of what I say below has already been argued by Adrian, I should note.)

There have been people who have said, right here on this message board, that they don't see the point of ordering even the best highest-quality Iberian ham at a restaurant, because "that's not cooking, it's slicing": the customer could (the poster assumes) purchase the same jamon himself.

What, however, if the ham is made by the restaurant? Then, you can't get it anywhere else. Maybe it's better than the best of what you could buy; maybe it's not. But either way, it's different. (This is the argument for the sausages and charcuterie at The Vanderbilt: maybe they're not the best in the world, but they're good. And they represent a Michelin-starred chef's take on charcuterie that you can't get anywhere else.)

What if the ham is at least as good as what you could buy yourself, and often better? What if, on the whole, it's generally better? Then, it becomes pretty exciting, right? A unique product that's of exceptional quality.

That's what critics are claiming for IBA's salumi. Now, maybe they're wrong. But if they're right, it isn't self-evident that it wouldn't merit attention. The question is, to what extent does that raise a star rating? Not to three, as I keep insisting.

(This also bears on the discussion we had a year or two ago when Sifton noted -- correctly, I would say -- that current NYC dining trends would privilege salumi made in Greenpoint or Bushwick over that imported from Italy.)

[Wilfrid]

Well, I do recall a very high flying diner stating that you don't get Michelin stars for charcuterie.

[robert40]

That's why I think the issue is a bit more complicated.

Let's back into it. (Much of what I say below has already been argued by Adrian, I should note.)

There have been people who have said, right here on this message board, that they don't see the point of ordering even the best highest-quality Iberian ham at a restaurant, because "that's not cooking, it's slicing": the customer could (the poster assumes) purchase the same jamon himself.

What, however, if the ham is made by the restaurant? Then, you can't get it anywhere else. Maybe it's better than the best of what you could buy; maybe it's not. But either way, it's different. (This is the argument for the sausages and charcuterie at The Vanderbilt: maybe they're not the best in the world, but they're good. And they represent a Michelin-starred chef's take on charcuterie that you can't get anywhere else.)

What if the ham is at least as good as what you could buy yourself, and often better? What if, on the whole, it's generally better? Then, it becomes pretty exciting, right? A unique product that's of exceptional quality.

That's what critics are claiming for IBA's salumi. Now, maybe they're wrong. But if they're right, it isn't self-evident that it wouldn't merit attention. The question is, to what extent does that raise a star rating? Not to three, as I keep insisting.

(This also bears on the discussion we had a year or two ago when Sifton noted -- correctly, I would say -- that current NYC dining trends would privilege salumi made in Greenpoint or Bushwick over that imported from Italy.)

I think you hit the nail on the head. I'll admit my eyebrows raised seeing the three star review. But from another perspective. It is labor intensive curing meats in house and costly. Not to mention how much more skill required then searing a piece of foie gras. Three stars? Not so sure. But that skill should count for something.

[oakapple]

Well, I do recall a very high flying diner stating that you don't get Michelin stars for charcuterie.

It reminds me of Wilfrid's complaint that you shouldn't get Restaurant of the Year (at The Dutch) for serving Oyster Po'Boys.

Lest I be misunderstood, I have ordered charcuterie and sliced meats on many occasions, and will again. I love the stuff. Last week, I walked into a bar and ordered half-a-dozen oysters on the half-shell; likewise, no cooking involved. Even if the identical quality were available in my local grocery store, I like being able to walk into a service establishment, order right there (with a cocktail), and have it served to me on the spot. I am willing to pay up for that.

But it's not cooking.

[Orik]

eta: response to Wilf

Some difference between that and questioning the culinary significance of "sliced meats".

[Orik]

Well, I do recall a very high flying diner stating that you don't get Michelin stars for charcuterie.

It reminds me of Wilfrid's complaint that you shouldn't get Restaurant of the Year (at The Dutch) for serving Oyster Po'Boys.

Lest I be misunderstood, I have ordered charcuterie and sliced meats on many occasions, and will again. I love the stuff. Last week, I walked into a bar and ordered half-a-dozen oysters on the half-shell; likewise, no cooking involved. Even if the identical quality were available in my local grocery store, I like being able to walk into a service establishment, order right there (with a cocktail), and have it served to me on the spot. I am willing to pay up for that.

But it's not cooking.

This is almost like the argument that sushi doesn't involve cooking, just shopping, and therefore shouldn't ever be three michelin star cuisine.

[oakapple]

It would be interesting to have an informed comparison between this place and the charcuterie program at SD26, which (as I recall) is pretty good -- never mind Sifty's stupid comment that it's less worthwhile if it didn't come from Brooklyn.

[hcbk0702]

This is almost like the argument that sushi doesn't involve cooking, just shopping, and therefore shouldn't ever be three michelin star cuisine.

But sushi does involve cooking. Certainly more than shucking oysters.

[oakapple]

This is almost like the argument that sushi doesn't involve cooking, just shopping, and therefore shouldn't ever be three michelin star cuisine.

I haven't read anything that would suggest a variety or skill level, that is akin to any Michelin three-star place that serves only sushi.

[Wilfrid]

It would be interesting to have an informed comparison between this place and the charcuterie program at SD26, which (as I recall) is pretty good -- never mind Sifty's stupid comment that it's less worthwhile if it didn't come from Brooklyn.

It would, but of course you can no longer get into Il Buco Discoteca.

[Sneakeater]

I have very little idea what charcuterie production involves. But then Bismark said I'm better off that way.

[Sneakeater]

Well, I do recall a very high flying diner stating that you don't get Michelin stars for charcuterie.

It reminds me of Wilfrid's complaint that you shouldn't get Restaurant of the Year (at The Dutch) for serving Oyster Po'Boys.

Lest I be misunderstood, I have ordered charcuterie and sliced meats on many occasions, and will again. I love the stuff. Last week, I walked into a bar and ordered half-a-dozen oysters on the half-shell; likewise, no cooking involved. Even if the identical quality were available in my local grocery store, I like being able to walk into a service establishment, order right there (with a cocktail), and have it served to me on the spot. I am willing to pay up for that.

And of course the point of somewhere like El Museo de Jamon in Madrid is that they feature a range of jamon that you could never maintain by yourself at home. So, even putting aside whatever superior trade connections they might have, you could never replicate the experience of snacking there in your dining room.

But it's not cooking.

It is if (unlike someplace like El Museo de Jamon) you cure the ham or produce the charcuterie yourself, isn't it?

[Orik]

This is almost like the argument that sushi doesn't involve cooking, just shopping, and therefore shouldn't ever be three michelin star cuisine.

I haven't read anything that would suggest a variety or skill level, that is akin to any Michelin three-star place that serves only sushi.

I believe the level of skill required to make world class raw ham/jamon/jambon/prosciutto (from getting the correct pigs or raising them, through curing/aging and finally taking good care of the leg after it's done) is similar.

[hcbk0702]

Now I want jamón ibérico de bellota. This thread sucks.

[Adrian]

This is almost like the argument that sushi doesn't involve cooking, just shopping, and therefore shouldn't ever be three michelin star cuisine.

I haven't read anything that would suggest a variety or skill level, that is akin to any Michelin three-star place that serves only sushi.

I believe the level of skill required to make world class raw ham/jamon/jambon/prosciutto (from getting the correct pigs or raising them, through curing/aging and finally taking good care of the leg after it's done) is similar.

Skill isn't the question. The question is whether charcuterie is ever cooking writ large. The question is whether a place that made its own charcuterie but only sold charcuterie could ever get a Michelin star or whether such a designation would be meaningful.