233 replies to this topic

[Lex]

Duplicate

[Anthony Bonner]

(BTW this is exactly the sort of place my manifesto rejects)

Hmmmm. I'm not sure how productive that is. Merits of the bottle service excepted, so what if Humm and co. want to build a place that's a little bit decadent and a little bit frivolous? Part of the fun of fine dining is it's frivolity and its generosity - it's a patently ridiculous exercise. I think a lot of people in their mid to late twenties and, I guess, now their 30s (though that's, thankfully, not me yet) who came of age during the whole American bistro revolution, mistake fine dining's absurdity for a joke being played at their expense. But you're supposed to laugh with it if it's good; it doesn't laugh at you. When Ducasse brought a stool for someone's purse (or so I hear), the girl is supposed to crack a smile, maybe laugh a bit, not bristle at the formality of it all. This is, of course, when it's done well. If it's done poorly, it's fussy, stodgy, staid, uncomfortable, and unpleasant. The flip side is the new, austere art project restaurant which, and I think Wilfrid's largely right here, is more of a "temple to food" than the old guard restaurants ever where. I love these places for the economic reason Bonner suggests. I also love them because they represent interesting, creative, and often fun, expressions of fine dining outside of a traditional model. To reject either strikes me as counter-productive.

Eh isn't your obsession with Montreal trash food sort evidence that you can have that fun decadent frivolous party in a room where the build out wasn't in to the seven figures?

A stripped down room doesn't have to be "a temple to food" - indeed if your low capital costs allow you to operate at a lower price point its a bit the opposite.

NYC does not need another restaurant like NoMad. And I like the food at EMP. I don't say this out of some aversion to their food.

[Adrian]

I don't disagree, though those restaurants are bistros. I'm talking about the Ko-type places - austere, fine dining joints stripped of more traditional amenities. I had a great experience at Ko, but the comment that it's a more reverent sort of experience is, I think, accurate. I think these places tend to be more necessarily food focused - I can imagine a meal at Jean Georges where you don't pay any attention to what's on the plate, it's hard to think of Ko in the same way.

I'd like to hear Wilfrid's thoughts on a place like Club Chasse et Peche, which is ostensibly a fine dining restaurant with linens and such, but borrows heavily from more casual places in terms of attitude, service, and even menu style. The result is a much more "fun" (for lack of a better word) meal than at other linened places.

[Anthony Bonner]

Yeah I don't have Ko in mind at all.

I'm thinking more along the lines of what you see in France and Spain.

[jmoranmoya]

So we went last night. The food was great, but nothing that we have not seen before, so I tend to agree with some of the comments from you guys.
To pay $125 for family style menu, I rather go to EMP and have the full fine dining experience. And if I want to have a more low key experience I will go to ISA.

Some pictures:


BTW The pictures are HORRIBLE and do not tell how good was the food . I bought a new camera and did not set up correctly for the diner and that's why the pictures are so dark and yellow.

[changeup]

So summing up, it's $125++pp for family style food and you get to mix your own cocktails? I mean, there is literally a brown paper deli package with meat sliced in it placed on that table.

I mean, I get the joke, but it's on us.

[changeup]

I don't understand the stool thing. Well, I understand it, but I don't understand why some women react (or should react) to it in the manner Adrian describes, nor do I understand why it's considered to be "formal" or funny. Could someone explain?

(FWIW, I prefer a basket-cloth combo to a stool)

You're used to Japan, but where the Japanese concept is based on the horror of you touching the purse that had touched the floor where the waiter may have previously stepped with the same shoes he wears outside (and in the bathroom), I think the European based meaning is slightly different, probably hinting at the fact that your purse is Prada or something.

I just saw the basket-cloth combo in Singapore for the first time at Din Tai Fung - thought it was really neat. If placing your purse on the ground at Per Se is bad, placing your purse on the ground at a busier dim sum restaurant is presumably worse. Thought it was a pretty good solution all around.

[jmoranmoya]

So summing up, it's $125++pp for family style food and you get to mix your own cocktails? I mean, there is literally a brown paper deli package with meat sliced in it placed on that table.

I mean, I get the joke, but it's on us.

Yes, the sliced paper deli charcuterie was a little bit too much of a joke. The flatbread that came it with and the pickled vegetables at least make it up for it. They were outstanding. The tasting is way overpriced!

[Sneakeater]

They don't MAKE you mix your own cocktails. They have a list.

[changeup]

Looking through the photos again - have they explicitly stated that their goal is to provide you with really well executed (technique wise) casual dinner date cooking? I mean, if you look at things like a cocktail mixer station, some hors d'oeuvres, bread/cold cuts/pickles, chicken/rack of lamb, cobbler and an ice-cream scoop, that meal is basically the best possible extrapolation of what get's served when you go over to your friends house for a nice couples dinner. Just... really well done.

It would seem to fit the whole hospitality thing too, it has the feel of home.

Actually - Sneak didn't you say that already, that this could be the best date place in the city?

In fact come to think of it, if all goes well, the beds are just upstairs too. And you have no cleanup to do the next day. I guess there's your added value.

[changeup]

So basically: Manhattan's Ad Hoc?

[erha2]

The food here is so well done but I'm most excited about the bar/cocktails here. Above 23rd street (I would even say above 14th), this is hands-down my premier cocktail destination. More accessible than Eleven Mad. They've also hired talent from Death and Co. for the bar program.

[jmoranmoya]

I don't know if this is the best cocktail or date spot ...but if you don't hook up with a girl after bringing her to the Nomad, then you have serious Social problems!
After the tasting she/he should be all over u.

[Sneakeater]

Looking through the photos again - have they explicitly stated that their goal is to provide you with really well executed (technique wise) casual dinner date cooking? I mean, if you look at things like a cocktail mixer station, some hors d'oeuvres, bread/cold cuts/pickles, chicken/rack of lamb, cobbler and an ice-cream scoop, that meal is basically the best possible extrapolation of what get's served when you go over to your friends house for a nice couples dinner. Just... really well done.

It would seem to fit the whole hospitality thing too, it has the feel of home.

Actually - Sneak didn't you say that already, that this could be the best date place in the city?

In fact come to think of it, if all goes well, the beds are just upstairs too. And you have no cleanup to do the next day. I guess there's your added value.

YES I SAID THAT.

Isn't it obvious?

I guess what I don't understand is why, all of a sudden, everybody thinks there's something WRONG with a place like that. I think they're a highly necessary category of restaurants (and not just for discreditable reasons). EVERYBODY isn't food-obsessed, you know.

[Sneakeater]

I don't know if this is the best cocktail or date spot ...but if you don't hook up with a girl after bringing her to the Nomad, then you have serious Social problems!
After the tasting she/he should be all over u.

If I can be serious for a minute (sorry!), many of the women I go out with find tasting menus tiresome (and more than they want to eat). The one at NoMad seems gimmicked-up enough that it might keep them interested. But a lot of people don't WANT to wade through seven courses -- no matter how utterly engaging and fascinating the person sitting across the table may be.

Maybe it's just me.

ETA -- Obviously this post is supposed to have some kind of general application. I'm not trying to bore you all by talking about my own individual dating exploits (such as they are).