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#16 Suzanne F

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 12:48 PM

Also, if I recall correctly, Brooklyn Fare didn't open with a lot of PR.

But it has had a lot of publicity since. You don't think all those mentions of Ramirez came through some mystical connection or just because he's so deserving, do you? Whether there is an official hand guiding the effort or not, something is making that happen.

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#17 oakapple

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 04:28 PM


Also, if I recall correctly, Brooklyn Fare didn't open with a lot of PR.

But it has had a lot of publicity since. You don't think all those mentions of Ramirez came through some mystical connection or just because he's so deserving, do you? Whether there is an official hand guiding the effort or not, something is making that happen.

No, of course not, but compared with most restaurants it did not have much publicity, particularly in the early going. And although publicity can pull people into the restaurant, it cannot account for all of the raves of the people who've actually been there. I mean, you're not really suggesting it's all a mirage, are you?
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#18 Suzanne F

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:10 PM



Also, if I recall correctly, Brooklyn Fare didn't open with a lot of PR.

But it has had a lot of publicity since. You don't think all those mentions of Ramirez came through some mystical connection or just because he's so deserving, do you? Whether there is an official hand guiding the effort or not, something is making that happen.

No, of course not, but compared with most restaurants it did not have much publicity, particularly in the early going. And although publicity can pull people into the restaurant, it cannot account for all of the raves of the people who've actually been there. I mean, you're not really suggesting it's all a mirage, are you?


That what's all a mirage?

Yes, I know you're a famous blogger and all that, but I doubt you are on the receiving end of all the publicity that goes out from all restaurants. So I have to take your "compared with most restaurants" lightly.

I'm suggesting that Ramirez is a great self-promoter to have hooked people's interest (and the interest of the media) in the first place, and that he's a good enough chef to maintain diners' interest. Or that he had some great PR done by someone else, and continues to have great PR that keeps him in the media's eye.

To me, the explosion of multimulticourse tasting menus is just other chefs trying to cash in on the phenomenon. Ramirez didn't start it, but he got plenty of press for doing it. And also plenty of word-of-mouth, both for his cooking and for being a martinet (to put it politely). Whether the others can gain and maintain interest (other than for being copycats) remains to be seen. As Chambolle noted in his Atera writeup, taste still matters. I don't doubt Wylie will be fine with it; I know he's a terrific chef and he was operating along similar lines anyway.

I don't want to seem obsessed with this, but . . . -- Sneakeater, August 13, 2014

 

notorious stickler -- NY Times
deeply annoying and nitpicking -- Molly O'Neill, One Big Table


#19 Adrian

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:33 PM

Not being the recipient of any pre-opening publicity, Ramirez's success at BF seems to be reasonably grass roots. I remember being invited to one of those "ratings corrective" dinners that a very Opinionated Diner was doing back in Fall 2009 before BF was on anyone's radar. The OD was, apparently, troubled by the fact that the ratings of this "mystery" restaurant were competitive with other restaurants that people had actually heard of. Googling the place at that time didn't yield much info. Sadly, I couldn't make it. No doubt there was some savvy marketing - the soft initial price and BYO policy were massive - but the initial praise seems to as "earned" as possible.

ETA: For clarity, the point is that the initial response to the place was so positive, and media coverage was so limited, that at least one OD questioned the veracity of the initial reviews, presuming them to (potentially) be the product of unrefined Brooklyn rubes. It seems to me that that the idea that this was some sort of Machiavellian plan on the part of Ramirez and his crack team of PR geniuses is unlikely. This does not deny that his *ahem* rigidity and the novelty of the concept made for a compelling story once the initial results were in.

I think you need to interpret what I'm saying in a reasonable way.


#20 Orik

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 08:44 PM




Also, if I recall correctly, Brooklyn Fare didn't open with a lot of PR.

But it has had a lot of publicity since. You don't think all those mentions of Ramirez came through some mystical connection or just because he's so deserving, do you? Whether there is an official hand guiding the effort or not, something is making that happen.

No, of course not, but compared with most restaurants it did not have much publicity, particularly in the early going. And although publicity can pull people into the restaurant, it cannot account for all of the raves of the people who've actually been there. I mean, you're not really suggesting it's all a mirage, are you?


That what's all a mirage?

Yes, I know you're a famous blogger and all that, but I doubt you are on the receiving end of all the publicity that goes out from all restaurants. So I have to take your "compared with most restaurants" lightly.

I'm suggesting that Ramirez is a great self-promoter to have hooked people's interest (and the interest of the media) in the first place, and that he's a good enough chef to maintain diners' interest. Or that he had some great PR done by someone else, and continues to have great PR that keeps him in the media's eye.

To me, the explosion of multimulticourse tasting menus is just other chefs trying to cash in on the phenomenon. Ramirez didn't start it, but he got plenty of press for doing it. And also plenty of word-of-mouth, both for his cooking and for being a martinet (to put it politely). Whether the others can gain and maintain interest (other than for being copycats) remains to be seen. As Chambolle noted in his Atera writeup, taste still matters. I don't doubt Wylie will be fine with it; I know he's a terrific chef and he was operating along similar lines anyway.



What?
I never said that

#21 nuxvomica

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:44 PM

Also, if I recall correctly, Brooklyn Fare didn't open with a lot of PR.

definitely opened with PR and one of the bigger ones (same company that did Bar Blanc and Bouley). may not seem like a Michael White type of frenzy but it was a first non-restaurant dining concept of its kind, on a nondescript block not downtown or Williamsburg, also he was coming off a not-so-wildly successful Bar Blanc so the initial reception may have been cooler but it definitely opened with serious PR effort.
“Eat me,’’ it says. “Eat me and die.’’ -- Jonathan Gold

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#22 Adrian

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:10 AM


Also, if I recall correctly, Brooklyn Fare didn't open with a lot of PR.

definitely opened with PR and one of the bigger ones (same company that did Bar Blanc and Bouley). may not seem like a Michael White type of frenzy but it was a first non-restaurant dining concept of its kind, on a nondescript block not downtown or Williamsburg, also he was coming off a not-so-wildly successful Bar Blanc so the initial reception may have been cooler but it definitely opened with serious PR effort.


A quick search of eater reveals almost nothing during fall 2009 - a report or two about the opening but no eater PR love-fests, then nothing until the Michelin Guide comes out and Ramirez has the dust up over notes.

ETA: Nor does it get an article on Grub Street until January 2010. Not a big PR push unless I'm really missing something here (an NYT profile in Fall 2009 maybe?)

ETA 2: Richman in January 2010, months after opening?

I think you need to interpret what I'm saying in a reasonable way.


#23 Suzanne F

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 02:02 AM



Also, if I recall correctly, Brooklyn Fare didn't open with a lot of PR.

definitely opened with PR and one of the bigger ones (same company that did Bar Blanc and Bouley). may not seem like a Michael White type of frenzy but it was a first non-restaurant dining concept of its kind, on a nondescript block not downtown or Williamsburg, also he was coming off a not-so-wildly successful Bar Blanc so the initial reception may have been cooler but it definitely opened with serious PR effort.


A quick search of eater reveals almost nothing during fall 2009 - a report or two about the opening but no eater PR love-fests, then nothing until the Michelin Guide comes out and Ramirez has the dust up over notes.

ETA: Nor does it get an article on Grub Street until January 2010. Not a big PR push unless I'm really missing something here (an NYT profile in Fall 2009 maybe?)

ETA 2: Richman in January 2010, months after opening?


Do not confuse the media's lack of picking up on PR with a lack of PR itself. As with Oakapple: maybe you didn't see any evidence, but that doesn't mean there was none.

I don't want to seem obsessed with this, but . . . -- Sneakeater, August 13, 2014

 

notorious stickler -- NY Times
deeply annoying and nitpicking -- Molly O'Neill, One Big Table


#24 Adrian

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 03:50 AM

Sure. But the failure of the initial PR to make much of a mark suggests that it was something else other than the PR machine that caused the restaurant to get traction. Or, if the PR machine doesn't make a sound, is there a PR machine at all?

I think you need to interpret what I'm saying in a reasonable way.


#25 oakapple

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:04 PM

To me, the explosion of multimulticourse tasting menus is just other chefs trying to cash in on the phenomenon.

Memo to Suzanne: Practically all restaurants are an attempt to "cash in" on something. That's what businesses do. There is very little that's truly new in the restaurant industry. Most are emulating, in one way or another, a trend that has already worked elsewhere.

Ramirez didn't start it, but he got plenty of press for doing it.

He may not exactly have started it, but there weren't many others in New York before he did it. Momofuku Ko, perhaps.

Whether the others can gain and maintain interest (other than for being copycats) remains to be seen. As Chambolle noted in his Atera writeup, taste still matters. I don't doubt Wylie will be fine with it; I know he's a terrific chef and he was operating along similar lines anyway.

I don't rely on Chambolle's Atera review, but I'd say we already know the answer to your general question: of course most will not be as successful as Brooklyn Fare. How could they be? Brooklyn Fare proved that there is a market for that sort of thing, when it's done well. As with all trends, many will try to replicate it, while not being good enough to pull it off.
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#26 Suzanne F

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:48 PM

Oakapple, your knowledge and analysis of the industry never cease to amaze me.

I don't want to seem obsessed with this, but . . . -- Sneakeater, August 13, 2014

 

notorious stickler -- NY Times
deeply annoying and nitpicking -- Molly O'Neill, One Big Table


#27 nuxvomica

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:21 AM



Also, if I recall correctly, Brooklyn Fare didn't open with a lot of PR.

definitely opened with PR and one of the bigger ones (same company that did Bar Blanc and Bouley). may not seem like a Michael White type of frenzy but it was a first non-restaurant dining concept of its kind, on a nondescript block not downtown or Williamsburg, also he was coming off a not-so-wildly successful Bar Blanc so the initial reception may have been cooler but it definitely opened with serious PR effort.


A quick search of eater reveals almost nothing during fall 2009 - a report or two about the opening but no eater PR love-fests, then nothing until the Michelin Guide comes out and Ramirez has the dust up over notes.

ETA: Nor does it get an article on Grub Street until January 2010. Not a big PR push unless I'm really missing something here (an NYT profile in Fall 2009 maybe?)

ETA 2: Richman in January 2010, months after opening?



Adrian, yes, you are missing the opening. It opened in late April 2009 and if you google it you will see a New York Times story and a bunch of other outlets covering the opening, some quite in advance of the opening and with a ton of images. also, there was a big story/review in the Atlantic that summer.
“Eat me,’’ it says. “Eat me and die.’’ -- Jonathan Gold

Everything is always OK in the end. If it's not OK, then it's not the end.

#28 Adrian

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 03:10 AM




Also, if I recall correctly, Brooklyn Fare didn't open with a lot of PR.

definitely opened with PR and one of the bigger ones (same company that did Bar Blanc and Bouley). may not seem like a Michael White type of frenzy but it was a first non-restaurant dining concept of its kind, on a nondescript block not downtown or Williamsburg, also he was coming off a not-so-wildly successful Bar Blanc so the initial reception may have been cooler but it definitely opened with serious PR effort.


A quick search of eater reveals almost nothing during fall 2009 - a report or two about the opening but no eater PR love-fests, then nothing until the Michelin Guide comes out and Ramirez has the dust up over notes.

ETA: Nor does it get an article on Grub Street until January 2010. Not a big PR push unless I'm really missing something here (an NYT profile in Fall 2009 maybe?)

ETA 2: Richman in January 2010, months after opening?



Adrian, yes, you are missing the opening. It opened in late April 2009 and if you google it you will see a New York Times story and a bunch of other outlets covering the opening, some quite in advance of the opening and with a ton of images. also, there was a big story/review in the Atlantic that summer.


Google is my friend. An NYT article in April (though covering something seemingly very different - four courses/a "recipe demonstration" for $70) and an August piece in The Atlantic that's pretty glowing. But why is it so hard to find real opening PR in NYMag/eater? Does this stuff qualify as a serious PR effort? Why did it get such little traction? This doesn't look like "major opening PR effort". But maybe it is. All kind of irrelevant now.

I think you need to interpret what I'm saying in a reasonable way.


#29 Suzanne F

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 01:19 PM

So which of you has been to Demi Monde?:rolleyes:

I don't want to seem obsessed with this, but . . . -- Sneakeater, August 13, 2014

 

notorious stickler -- NY Times
deeply annoying and nitpicking -- Molly O'Neill, One Big Table


#30 Sneakeater

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:33 PM

It isn't officially open yet.
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