371 replies to this topic

[oakapple]

Is Drew implying that he would like Corton to be cheaper?

My interpretation is that he had doubts about raising the price as substantially as they did, and he still questions it from time to time. His doubts are probably not to the point that he would insist on lowering them again. I'm sure he realizes that that would be perceived as capitulation.

He also seems to be missing the point by quite a bit - seems more like the opposite, in that you can't do anything interesting unless you're small.

I am not sure what point you think he missed. Given his track record, I think it's more likely that WE missed the point than he.

I think he's just saying that when Per Se charges $295 a head, it makes room for others to come in below than that, and still not seem egregious. He's also saying that he is rather amazed at places charging $150 a head right out of the gate, a reaction many of us share.

[Adrian]

$150 isn't out of line with tasting menu costs in secondary food cities (ie. Splendido in Toronto will set you back $125, Menton in Boston is $155, No. 9 Park is $120ish, Citronelle in DC is $190(!)). It doesn't surprise me that NYC is slightly higher. And, from a price/quality perspective, it still wins.

[Wilfrid]

An entertaining piece in the current edition of Food & Wine about the difficulties of battling with some of the reservation systems we've discussed here. Perhaps inevitably, it's a little unfair about Ko, but much of it is on point.

Highlights:

- Noma gets 100,000 reservation inquiries per month.
- Achatz's Next sold out an entire year of reservations in under six hours.

[Wilfrid]

$150 isn't out of line with tasting menu costs in secondary food cities (ie. Splendido in Toronto will set you back $125, Menton in Boston is $155, No. 9 Park is $120ish, Citronelle in DC is $190(!)). It doesn't surprise me that NYC is slightly higher. And, from a price/quality perspective, it still wins.

Maybe so, but it's a sudden development to have new restaurants with relatively unknown chefs launching themselves in this price bracket.

[Sneakeater]

I'm still getting used to this New Age of being allowed to say u.e.'s name out loud.

[Wilfrid]

Oh yes, I forgot to mention the u.e. name checks.

[Adrian]

$150 isn't out of line with tasting menu costs in secondary food cities (ie. Splendido in Toronto will set you back $125, Menton in Boston is $155, No. 9 Park is $120ish, Citronelle in DC is $190(!)). It doesn't surprise me that NYC is slightly higher. And, from a price/quality perspective, it still wins.

Maybe so, but it's a sudden development to have new restaurants with relatively unknown chefs launching themselves in this price bracket.

But that phenomenon seems to be limited to Unreal counter dining restaurants, no?

[oakapple]

$150 isn't out of line with tasting menu costs in secondary food cities (ie. Splendido in Toronto will set you back $125, Menton in Boston is $155, No. 9 Park is $120ish, Citronelle in DC is $190(!)). It doesn't surprise me that NYC is slightly higher. And, from a price/quality perspective, it still wins.

Maybe so, but it's a sudden development to have new restaurants with relatively unknown chefs launching themselves in this price bracket.

But that phenomenon seems to be limited to Unreal counter dining restaurants, no?

No: see Romera.

But in any event, whatever the layout may be (counter seating, or whatever), it's big news that so many restaurants have suddenly appeared with a $150 entry price. Is the tasting menu the entry level offering at all the places Adrian listed? And did they all open with that, or did they evolve to it after proving themselves in the market?

The $100+ tasting menu, in and of itself, is not new. What's new is the plethora of new restaurants that start with that, when the chef has not previously proved himself in this market.

[Adrian]

Romera was being treated as a "name" chef, no?

(Wilfrid's point was no name guys doing this. No one would be shocked if Michael White opened a $150 entry level standard restaurant)

[Sneakeater]

An entertaining piece in the current edition of Food & Wine about the difficulties of battling with some of the reservation systems we've discussed here.

People attuned to a certain segment of Brooklyn music/media culture will be amused to note that this entertaining piece is by Jon Fine.

[oakapple]

Romera was being treated as a "name" chef, no?

(Wilfrid's point was no name guys doing this. No one would be shocked if Michael White opened a $150 entry level standard restaurant)

As I recall, most folks thought that there was considerable chutzpah in opening a $185 restaurant, when the chef was totally unknown in New York. Romera had earned a Michelin star in Spain, but his name didn't roll off the tongue the way Thomas Keller and Alain Ducasse did when they opened restaurants here at a similar price.

I'd say the guys at Atera (Matthew Lightner) and Demi Monde (Phillip Kirschen-Clark) are better known here than Romera was.

[Orik]

At some point, Corton was the cheapest two michelin star restaurant in a major city. Drew was right when he feared losing that status, but the restaurant benefits from focusing on a tasting menu in many ways - obviously the baseline expense per-diner is guaranteed to be higher, which compensates for decreased number of expensive bottles sold to Goldman, but also there's less uncertainty in timing, staffing, inventory, etc. Also, a weak FOH is less of an issue when the meal choice interaction is removed.

[Wilfrid]

I'd say the guys at Atera (Matthew Lightner) and Demi Monde (Phillip Kirschen-Clark) are better known here than Romera was.

I think it was always a problem that googling Romera to find out about him turned up the Chez Pim review.

[Sneakeater]

I found Drew Neiporrent's comments interesting.

I think the first thing that has to be pointed out is that, when Montrachet opened, David Bouley wasn't David Bouley yet. So Drew's remark that "and we had David Bouley" when they started with their $16 prix fixe menu is a bit off-point.

But what else is different? One thing is that in 1985, chefmania and foodmania hadn't yet set in. Meals were just meals -- things you had out with friends -- and not subjects of deep appreciation and analysis. Chefs -- although this was starting to change then -- were just the guys (they were -- and are -- usually guys) who cooked them.

I think the new hyper-expensive entry-level prices (for long tasting menus) is a result of the ascendance of foodmania and chefmania. People should cash in now. Those trends aren't going to last forever.

[Wilfrid]

Yes, the cult of the chef has a great deal to do with what you can charge people for dinner. Imagine what the art market would be if it was about buying paintings you liked, rather than paintings by important artists.

But the phenomenon could have quite a long lifespan. Celebrity, once conferred, is hard to remove.