371 replies to this topic

[Sneakeater]

Compare Fiamma under White with Fiamma under Trabocchi and you'll see what taion means by "dumbed-down".

(The way I'd put it is that White's food, while occasionally complicated, is essentially unsophisticated.) (There's no mystery why I think Morini is his best NYC restaurant.)

[mitchells]

But remember that when Marea opened several of the dishes were considered to be "groundbreaking." Like the pasta with marrow.

[Sneakeater]

Considered to be "groundbreaking" by people blinded by fat.

[Anthony Bonner]

But remember that when Marea opened several of the dishes were considered to be "groundbreaking." Like the pasta with marrow.

By whom? As a crowd White is one of those chefs this cohort has never bought into.

ETA: Basically making SE's point

[AaronS]

corton got more challenging as soon as bruni published the review.

[Wilfrid]

I think the idea of doing ambitious, or at least serious and grown up food, with relatively stripped down ambience and FoH (stalactites aside) has been around a little while (not counting Chang). Degustation comes to mind too. Maybe we'd all agree that this has been a good thing.

The problem is that a lot of those places don't really outperform on food the way that Ssam in its heyday or Frej do (and Degustation as well, but I'm biased there). And even then, for whatever reason the outperformance on food seldom lasts.

Fine, but I'm not asking for - or expecting - lots of little restaurants which will be at the cutting edge when it comes to conception and execution. I'm just modestly asking for lots of little restaurants which take food seriously (rather than just throwing stuff on a grill or reinventing the slider).

[Wilfrid]

But remember that when Marea opened several of the dishes were considered to be "groundbreaking." Like the pasta with marrow.

By whom? As a crowd White is one of those chefs this cohort has never bought into.

ETA: Basically making SE's point

I sold shares in White a very long time ago, when I saw what a hash the kitchen made of an ambitious tasting menu at Alto.

I liked Morini too.

[mitchells]

But remember that when Marea opened several of the dishes were considered to be "groundbreaking." Like the pasta with marrow.

By whom? As a crowd White is one of those chefs this cohort has never bought into.

ETA: Basically making SE's point

I sold shares in White a very long time ago, when I saw what a hash the kitchen made of an ambitious tasting menu at Alto.

I liked Morini too.

And who has a better track record than you?

[Anthony Bonner]

I'll be honest - as a crowd this place has been so indifferent to White since the very beginning that for a period of time I thought there was a chance that one of our members was his investor and no one wanted to insult them.

[Wilfrid]

And who has a better track record than you?

Eighty One.

[mitchells]

And who has a better track record than you?

Eighty One.

I seem to remember you liking that place too.

[taion]

I didn't mean this in the sense that White's food is bad (or necessarily even outright worse than Liebrandt's in some aspects). Osteria Morini is great, and I'm really hoping that some Michael White place opens in the SHO space. The difference is that Corton makes me excited in a way that the Michael White places don't.

[Wilfrid]

Pretty much unanimous on that in these parts, I think.

[oakapple]

I didn't mean this in the sense that White's food is bad (or necessarily even outright worse than Liebrandt's in some aspects). Osteria Morini is great, and I'm really hoping that some Michael White place opens in the SHO space. The difference is that Corton makes me excited in a way that the Michael White places don't.

This invites the question, why did you suggest that something exciting would be "Paul Liebrandt getting to Michael White levels of popularity and expanding as such"?

It may be that Paul Liebrandt has more raw skill than Michael White. But I think it's also significant that Liebrandt has never been in more than one kitchen at a time. When you have seven of them -- as White does today, and I don't think he's finished yet -- they're not going to be as good.

The most I could imagine Liebrandt doing, without diluting his brand as White has done, is a "small plates Corton" nearby. If there are half-a-dozen Liebrandt places, there's just no way they'll be as exciting as Corton.

[AaronS]

I think a plurality of Liebrant places would be exciting because it would show an increased level of sophistication among the NY dining public at large and would probably lead to people leaving his kitchens to do more interesting stuff on our own.

the popularity of the White places just tells us that there's still a market for italian food in a nice room.