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#136 Orik

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 09:17 PM

What was the name of the Quintessence chef / subway fapper?
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#137 mongo_jones

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 01:01 AM

Good piece, and I am glad you separated the drinking from the abuse; I’d be inclined to separate the style of cuisine from the abuse too. Not only are there sober abusers out there, but I bet some of them are cooking vegan.

 

i didn't mean to draw a connection between the culture issues and the style of cuisine in terms of its components; more in terms of the maximalist presentation: the over-the-top, "eat this and die" style and portions; things like the foie gras double-down, "lamb for two" that could feed four and so. is that approach also an expression of a kind of macho braggadocio? maybe not. even if so, i wouldn't suggest that this is a style of food made by abusers--just wondering about the larger ethos.


my annoying opinions: whisky, food and occasional cultural commentary

 

current restaurant review: house of curry (sri lankan in rosemount, mn)

 

current whisky review: glen ord 28

 

current recipe: white bean curry with green peppers

 

 

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#138 Wilfrid

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 01:32 AM

I hear you, and there may well be some male preening (but April Bloomfield). I was very concerned about the facile New Yorker linkage between drinking and abuse (statistical correlation over large populations over years, probably, but in this specific case?) so I slavishly make the consistent point about the cuisine.

Brooklyn-related, I was today observing, not for the first time, an all-male team of heavily bearded, baseball-capped guys hanging out around their successful business, which has “bro” written all over it. It’s an aesthetic which doesn’t appeal to me at all. Is it misogynist? Racist? They are probably a bunch of liberals, but I wish I saw a woman or someone of color in the crew. Is abuse more likely in this environment? I don’t know.

I am working through some thoughts not drawing conclusions.

#139 Orik

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 08:44 AM

It's not particularly surprising that the liberal arts professor living in central Lutherania grows to believe great excess is produced by, and consumed by, pussy grabbing rednecks (not to mention it is the work of the devil) and that good people eat salad bowls. 

 

It's also not particularly surprising that Wilfrid brings up the usual music stopped fallacy - exists(A&X) & exists(B&X) => P(X|A) = P(X|B) (that is, if there's a sober vegan abuser it means drunken steak eaters are no more likely to be abusers) 

 

 

But looking at reality for a second:

 

- the links between excess alcohol consumption and poor impulse control, poor decision making, and correspondingly physical abuse are undeniable - which does not mean they are linked in this case. It is however safe to say that if you run your business like a big party where management and staff partake, there will be trouble in the end unless you're very lucky - especially in a context where anyone with a gripe can use that management style against you - but also true without that being the case.

 

- if you are a bunch of bros and / or you're trying to attract another bunch of bros then there are very simple ways to do that (double meat? quadruple meat!), not involving complex French recipes or growing vegetables in your basement or back yard. This again doesn't mean the secret goal of the JB team isn't to attract a very sophisticated kind of bro, or that their food isn't expressing a very sophisticated kind of bro-ism

 

- excess in cuisine as a form of good hospitality and celebration is deeply rooted in many cultures, obviously including that of Quebec, but also let's not forget you can go to Damas nearby or to any good old feast in the levant and then have to spend several hours rolling around in pain before you can get back on your Mini Camel 500. That those roots are of course linked to the images of big burly men going to do maple things in the cold, or to the levantine patriarchy but e.g. in Japan there is no such culture and yet it is the worst of the worst when it comes to sexual abuse and inequality, and has been so forever. So it's rather the case that cultural artifacts are linked to the past of culture (even caused by features of that past) and the past of culture (and present are deeply bro) but that does not mean they are bad if that past is bad. 


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#140 Orik

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 09:45 AM

just wondering about the larger ethos.


Bromakase is probably more expressive of that right now than whole stuffed elk.
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#141 Sneakeater

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 02:13 PM

+1 to Orik.
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#142 mongo_jones

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 02:17 PM

yeah, that's all fair enough. i would just add again that i'm not speculating about culture writ large, only at a restaurant like joe beef one of whose proprietors specifically says "The community of people I surrounded myself with ate and drank like Vikings". 


my annoying opinions: whisky, food and occasional cultural commentary

 

current restaurant review: house of curry (sri lankan in rosemount, mn)

 

current whisky review: glen ord 28

 

current recipe: white bean curry with green peppers

 

 

facts are meaningless. you could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
~homer simpson


 


#143 Orik

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 02:45 PM

They did, but then they found out they're reaching viking life expectancy and started drinking like Mormons and eating like Jains. True Vikings would have soldiered on.


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#144 Sneakeater

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 04:03 PM

I think part of the problem with the New Yorker piece, which led to Mongo's reaction, is that it used the term "alcoholic" rather than "substance abuser".  "Alcoholic" is part of our current therapeutic culture; it sounds like an excuse:  "I'm not responsible for my actions, I had a disease."  But I don't think that's what the Joe Beef guys meant to be saying.  I think they meant to be saying, "We chose to abuse a substance that impaired our attentiveness and impulse control.  It permitted bad behavior that, now that we no longer abuse the substance, we expect to put an end to."  I think it's an interesting sign of our current therapeutic culture that Mongo reads that as an abnegation of responsibility.  I read it as the opposite.  But the use of the term "alcoholism" didn't help.

 

(To be completely upfront, I say this as someone who chooses to abuse alcohol himself.  I recognize what it often does to me [although in my case it leads to arguably unwise late-night online record purchases rather than an abusive work environment], and see it in others.  I think Wilfrid's problem would also be mitigated if we replaced "alcoholic" with "substance abuser":  nobody's making discriminatory claims about people who have no choice or claiming that substance abuse excuses certain actions; we're only asserting that in the real world, certain choices often have certain consequences.  There's a reason bartenders cut people off.)


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#145 joethefoodie

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 04:05 PM

Maybe related, maybe not - but I've always liked kitchens with women cooking. and that's probably one of the reasons I enjoy Cervo's as much as I do; often, it's 3 women, and women only, running that kitchen.



#146 mongo_jones

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 05:08 PM

 But I don't think that's what the Joe Beef guys meant to be saying.  I think they meant to be saying, "We chose to abuse a substance that impaired our attentiveness and impulse control.  It permitted bad behavior that, now that we no longer abuse the substance, we expect to put an end to."  I think it's an interesting sign of our current therapeutic culture that Mongo reads that as an abnegation of responsibility.  I read it as the opposite.  But the use of the term "alcoholism" didn't help.

 

 

 

 

i think they're taking responsibility in the present (which is good) but waving it off in the past as being due to alcohol abuse, as opposed to being part of a frat-boy kitchen culture that also included the other stuff. 


my annoying opinions: whisky, food and occasional cultural commentary

 

current restaurant review: house of curry (sri lankan in rosemount, mn)

 

current whisky review: glen ord 28

 

current recipe: white bean curry with green peppers

 

 

facts are meaningless. you could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
~homer simpson


 


#147 Sneakeater

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 05:09 PM

OK, to that extent I completely agree with you.


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#148 mongo_jones

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 05:11 PM

there's a difference between saying "i said and did and allowed sexist/homophobic things in the kitchen because i was drunk all the time" and saying, "i came out of a kitchen culture which was sexist, homophobic and encouraged substance abuse."


my annoying opinions: whisky, food and occasional cultural commentary

 

current restaurant review: house of curry (sri lankan in rosemount, mn)

 

current whisky review: glen ord 28

 

current recipe: white bean curry with green peppers

 

 

facts are meaningless. you could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
~homer simpson


 


#149 Sneakeater

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 05:12 PM

OK, to that extent I completely agree with you.


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#150 Sneakeater

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 05:13 PM

But it's STILL a lot better than saying, "Mario did that stuff???????????  I had no idea (and of course I wasn't in any way involved)!"


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