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if advice is indeed necessary, i think it should come from BOTH parties, those with children and those without.

 

There ya go.

 

but the sentence preceding it was..

 

why do i need input from people to decide whether i am going to have children or not? i dont go about asking people for advice everytime i want to have sex.
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the former's advice may have some value if they are honest about everything without going on and on about what a joy it is to have a child. i dont want to hear , 'oh yes, some days are difficult' either. how is *that* helpful?

 

What if that's the truth? And helpful for what?

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Not sayin this is right. Not sayin this is wrong. Just some words from a woman, Lauryn Hill, who seems to have done well--hormones or not.

 

Unsure of what the balance held

I touched my belly overwhelmed

By what I had been chosen to perform

But then an angel came one day

Told me to kneel down and pray

For unto me a man child would be born

Woe this crazy circumstance

I knew his life deserved a chance

But everybody told me to be smart

Look at your career they said,

"Lauryn, baby use your head"

But instead I chose to use my heart

 

Now the joy of my world is in Zion

Now the joy of my world is in Zion

 

How beautiful if nothing more

Than to wait at Zion's door

I've never been in love like this before

Now let me pray to keep you from

The perils that will surely come

See life for you my prince has just begun

And I thank you for choosing me

To come through unto life to be

A beautiful reflection of his grace

For I know that a gift so great

Is only one God could create

And I'm reminded every time I see your face

 

That the joy of my world is in Zion

Now the joy of my world is in Zion

Now the joy of my world is in Zion

Now the joy of my world is in Zion

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the former's advice may have some value if they are honest about everything without going on and on about what a joy it is to have a child. i dont want to hear , 'oh yes, some days are difficult' either. how is *that* helpful?

 

What if that's the truth? And helpful for what?

 

and then the truth is buddha.

 

but did you know..They say the mountain holds many secrets, but the biggest is this: "I am a fake mountain."

 

eta because i should probably answer this more seriously than provide a jack handy quip.

 

listen. *everyone* knows that parenthood is a pain and a joy. the god/devil is in the details. euphoria as well as depression happens to new mothers. after it wears out, i want to hear the *facts* of the matter. all information is useful. it is just that there ought to be a filtering system to filter out gushing endorsements mostly because it is natural for parents to focus on the positive aspects(most of which is emotional/hormonal) because it justifies their decision and makes the harder times more bearable.

 

but the point is that the emotional reward is just not enough to make a decision re childbirth. there are so many other factors involved and most of which need to be evaluated on an individual basis to determine whether the decision will have a detrimental or positive impact on the mothers life.

 

is this better?

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the former's advice may have some value if they are honest about everything without going on and on about what a joy it is to have a child. i dont want to hear , 'oh yes, some days are difficult' either. how is *that* helpful?

 

What if that's the truth? And helpful for what?

 

and then the truth is buddha.

 

but did you know..They say the mountain holds many secrets, but the biggest is this: "I am a fake mountain."

Have you been hanging with Donovan?

 

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.

First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.

First there is a mountain

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*everyone* knows that parenthood is a pain and a joy.

 

...

 

the emotional reward is just not enough to make a decision re childbirth. there are so many other factors involved and most of which need to be evaluated on an individual basis to determine whether the decision will have a detrimental or positive impact on the mothers life.

 

 

Um. Duh.

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it is just that there ought to be a filtering system to filter out gushing endorsements mostly because it is natural for parents to focus on the positive aspects(most of which is emotional/hormonal) because it justifies their decision and makes the harder times more bearable.

 

 

Filtering system? Just listen to what you want, and don't listen to what you don't want.

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it is just that there ought to be a filtering system to filter out gushing endorsements mostly because it is natural for parents to focus on the positive aspects(most of which is emotional/hormonal) because it justifies their decision and makes the harder times more bearable.

 

 

Filtering system? Just listen to what you want, and don't listen to what you don't want.

 

omnivorette, what is your point?

 

***

 

'The time has come,' the Walrus said,

'To talk of many things:

Of shoes -- and ships -- and sealing wax --

Of cabbages -- and kings --

And why the sea is boiling hot --

And whether pigs have wings.'

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Not sayin this is right. Not sayin this is wrong. Just some words from a woman, Lauryn Hill, who seems to have done well--hormones or not.

hollywood, bad example (unless you are advocating FB's POV).

 

Lauryn Hill is maybe the poster child for motherhood driving you batty. After releasing one of the most critically-acclaimed R&B albums of the 90's, this woman has let her talent go to absolute pot. She hasn't been able to record an album since. If her choice to be a stay-at-home mom were coming from a good place I would applaud it, but from reports she has actually gone bonkers and she CAN'T come up with new songs for a new album. It's been almost a decade since Miseducation.

 

Saw the briefly re-united Fugees on Dave Chappelle's Block Party and frankly, it made me sad.

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Not sayin this is right. Not sayin this is wrong. Just some words from a woman, Lauryn Hill, who seems to have done well--hormones or not.

hollywood, bad example (unless you are advocating FB's POV).

 

Lauryn Hill is maybe the poster child for motherhood driving you batty. After releasing one of the most critically-acclaimed R&B albums of the 90's, this woman has let her talent go to absolute pot. She hasn't been able to record an album since. If her choice to be a stay-at-home mom were coming from a good place I would applaud it, but from reports she has actually gone bonkers and she CAN'T come up with new songs for a new album. It's been almost a decade since Miseducation.

 

Saw the briefly re-united Fugees on Dave Chappelle's Block Party and frankly, it made me sad.

I'm not advocating (that's my day job). I agree it's time for a new album. I agree the double album she did was boring. I thought the Fugees did a concert or two, no? BTW, what are these reports and where are they coming from? Maybe Ms. Hill just has writer's block independent of issues associated with kids. Maybe the lawsuit from Miseducation had some repercussions.

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From delusional author Anna Quindlan:

 

On Being Mom

by Anna Quindlen

If not for the photographs, I might have a hard time believing they ever existed. The pensive infant with the swipe of dark bangs and the blackbutton eyes of a Raggedy Andy doll. The placid baby with the yellow ringlets and the high piping voice. The sturdy toddler with the lower lip that curled into an apostrophe above her chin. ALL MY BABIES are gone now.

I say this not in sorrow but in disbelief. I take great satisfaction in what I have today: three almost-adults, two taller than I am, one closing in fast. Three people who read the same books I do and have learned not to be afraid of disagreeing with me in their opinion of them, who sometimes tell vulgar jokes that make me laugh until I choke and cry, who need razor blades and shower gel and privacy, who want to keep their doors closed more than I like.

Who, miraculously, go to the bathroom, zip up their jackets and move food from plate to mouth all by themselves. Like the trick soap I bought for the bathroom with a rubber ducky at its center, the baby is buried deep within each, barely discernible except through the unreliable haze of the past.

Everything in all the books I once pored over is finished for me now. Penelope Leach., T. Berry Brazelton., Dr. Spock. The ones on sibling rivalry and sleeping through the night and early-childhood education, all grown obsolete.

Along with Goodnight Moon and Where the Wild Things Are, they are battered, spotted, well used. But I suspect that if you flipped the pages dust would rise like memories.

What those books taught me, finally, and what the women on the playground taught me, and the well-meaning relations -- what they taught me was that they couldn't really teach me very much at all. Raising children is presented at first as a true-false test, then becomes multiple choice, until finally, far along, you realize that it is an endless essay. No one knows anything. One child responds well to positive reinforcement, another can be managed only with a stern voice and a timeout. One boy is toilet trained at 3, his brother at 2.

When my first child was born, parents were told to put baby to bed on his belly so that he would not choke on his own spit- up. By the time my last arrived, babies were put down on their backs because of research on sudden infant death syndrome. To a new parent this ever-shifting certainty is terrifying, and then soothing.

Eventually you must learn to trust yourself. Eventually the research will follow.

I remember 15 years ago poring over one of Dr. Brazelton's wonderful books on child development, in which he describes three different sorts of infants: average, quiet, and active. I was looking for a sub-quiet codicil for an 18-month-old who did not walk. Was there something wrong with his fat little legs? Was there something wrong with his tiny little mind? Was he developmentally delayed, physically challenged? Was I insane? Last year he went to China . Next year he goes to college. He can talk just fine. He can walk,too.

Every part of raising children is humbling, too. Believe me, mistakes were made. They have all been enshrined in the Remember-When-Mom-Did Hall of Fame. The outbursts, the temper tantrums, the bad language, mine, not theirs. The times the baby fell off the bed. The times I arrived late for preschool pickup. The nightmare sleepover. The horrible summer camp. The day when the youngest came barreling out of the classroom with a 98 on her geography test, and I responded, What did you get wrong? (She insisted I include that.) The time I ordered food at the McDonald's drive-through speaker and then drove away without picking it up from the window. (They all insisted I include that.) I did not allow them to watch the Simpsons for the first two seasons.

What was I thinking?

But the biggest mistake I made is the one that most of us make while doing this. I did not live in the moment enough. This is particularly clear now that the moment is gone, captured only in photographs. There is one picture of the three of them sitting in the grass on a quilt in the shadow of the swing set on a summer day, ages 6, 4 and 1. And I wish I could remember what we ate, and what we talked about, and how they sounded, and how they looked when they slept that night. I wish I had not been in such a hurry to get on to the next thing: dinner, bath, book, bed. I wish I had treasured the doing a little more and the getting it done a little less.

Even today I'm not sure what worked and what didn't, what was me and what was simply life. When they were very small, I suppose I thought someday they would become who they were because of what I'd done. Now I suspect they simply grew into their true selves because they demanded in a thousand ways that I back off and let them be.

The books said to be relaxed and I was often tense, matter-of-fact and I was sometimes over the top. And look how it all turned out. I wound up with the three people I like best in the world, who have done more than anyone to excavate my essential humanity. Thats what the books never told me. I was bound and determined to learn from the experts.

It just took me a while to figure out who the experts were!

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it is just that there ought to be a filtering system to filter out gushing endorsements mostly because it is natural for parents to focus on the positive aspects(most of which is emotional/hormonal) because it justifies their decision and makes the harder times more bearable.

 

 

Filtering system? Just listen to what you want, and don't listen to what you don't want.

 

omnivorette, what is your point?

 

 

You said "there ought to be a filtering system" and I'm just saying that a perfectly good 'system' is to listen to what you want, and don't listen to what you don't want. Beyond that, what 'filtering system' do you have in mind?

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3 I do believe that being a parent is the most emotionally intense experience a person can have. You are free to disagree.

 

4 People who don't have children are lacking in the experience of having children. That may be bad or good or indifferent, depending on the people, but people who don't have children....don't have children, and don't experience what it is to have children. That may be the right choice for them, but they will in fact be missing out on the experience.

 

As a parent I agree that motherhood is an intense emotional experience.

 

But I am puzzled by this assertion that it is the *most* or even unique among human experience. I can think of many emotional experience that is equally intense, consuming, and is more than just momentary as an orgasm is. I would list falling in love or deep infatuation, grief over sudden death, the love and connection between siblings, a spiritual or mystical experience - all of these can be equally intense and incomparable.

 

Motherhood is an intensely *human* experience and as such the intensity and the way parenthood is experienced is as diverse as human beings are. There are mothers who never bond and not because of any pathological condition but because, I believe, they just were never that much into motherhood, but were socially conditioned and pressured into having a child. This is why I believer mothering is a learned skill and not just instinctual or 'natural' whatever that means. We learn how to mother largely, but not only, from the way we ourselves were mothered - intimate and close, or distant and indifferent.

 

I do agree however that it is not until I had my own children did I truly understand what motherhood means and I also agree that it is an experience that is a big part of being human. I feel my life would have been truly incomplete without it and my children are the most important source of joy, happiness, life-satisfaction for *me*. But they were, and still are, also the biggest source of despair, sadness, anxiety, pain. This is the way motherhood feels.

 

But I can also easily see how motherhood may not be experienced the same way by all women. So I shrink from making any kind of statement about what motherhood is or should be for all women or that they are missing out on some grand experience if they choose to be childfree.

 

As a mother, and a woman, and non-mountaineer I can only imagine the exhilaration of climbing to the top of Mt. Everest but I will never experience it. But so what?

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