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Where, oh where, are the parents? No coverage whatsoever. Several references to his writings mentioning sexual molestation. Was he adopted by American parents like so many Korean children of his era? Was he "damaged goods" or mentally unstable when he came to America? I am always interested in the background, parenting, life experiences and hoping for explanations. [deleted by Admin], we need permits for parenting. There are, unfortunately, a minute number of genetically defective, remorseless, untrainable people. Until they break a law, we don't have any place for them. I also do not understand the withholding of personal information by the police such as his 8 page rant. He's dead. What is the purpose of withholding information?

 

The NY Times article :

 

Mr. Cho was a 23-year-old senior, skinny and boyish-looking, his hair cut in a short, military-style fashion. He was a native of South Korea who grew up in Centreville, Va., a suburb of Washington, where his family owns a dry-cleaning business. He moved with his family to the United States at age 8, in 1992, according to federal immigration authorities, and was a legal permanent resident, not a citizen.
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I truly love coverage of this story:

 

Richard Arum, professor of sociology and education at New York University, offers one opinion on the root causes: "I would argue that discipline in our schools earlier is not working. And young men, in particular, are not internalizing the norms and values of our society. And periodically, you get acute manifestations of this, as in these rampage school shootings."

 

Yes, it is a damn shame that the mentally ill can't seem to internalize the moral standards of our society. :lol:

 

On a related note, interesting that the Panetti trial is being reexamined this week...

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I truly love coverage of this story:

 

Richard Arum, professor of sociology and education at New York University, offers one opinion on the root causes: "I would argue that discipline in our schools earlier is not working. And young men, in particular, are not internalizing the norms and values of our society. And periodically, you get acute manifestations of this, as in these rampage school shootings."

 

Yes, it is a damn shame that the mentally ill can't seem to internalize the moral standards of our society. :lol:

 

On a related note, interesting that the Panetti trial is being reexamined this week...

 

 

Newark NJ had 130 murders last year, the vast majority by gunfire. I doubt that the shooters were mentally ill. A few of those murders were of witnesses to earlier murders.

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Newark NJ had 130 murders last year, the vast majority by gunfire. I doubt that the shooters were mentally ill. A few of those murders were of witnesses to earlier murders.

 

Not sure what connection you're making, apart from something about gun laws. For those who are not obsessive BBC news listeners, Scott Panetti was the diagnosed schizophrenic who murdered his ex-wife and in-laws, and was found fit by the jury to defend himself at his own trial (to which he usually showed up wearing a cowboy outfit.)

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The comment was made about the shootings in virginia, not about american youth or violent crime in america in general. I still don't see what point you're making, RP. If there are any big patterns to the story for me, they are a) gun issues and b) the state of care of the mentally ill in this country. Not sure where crime in NJ fits into this.

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The comment was made about the shootings in virginia, not about american youth or violent crime in america in general. I still don't see what point you're making, RP. If there are any big patterns to the story for me, they are a) gun issues and b) the state of care of the mentally ill in this country. Not sure where crime in NJ fits into this.

 

But surely we had mentally ill people in earlier decades, no? Would you say school shootings are on the rise?

 

from reading the transcript, he seems to be referring to root causes in general regarding school shootings, which are on the increase according to him. He has written a book called "Judging School Discipline: The Crisis of Moral Authority". He has an agenda, to promote his beliefs or point of view of course about school shootings in general and the causes. A complete transcript of the interview from CNN/Lou Dobbs follows, and he notes, of interest, that these types of shootings did not occur in the 50's, 60's or even 70's so much as today and it's a cultural change... I have no endorsement on his beliefs other than to note I think he's correct that school shootings was not so much a phenomenon in earlier decades. Food for thought.

 

DOBBS: What drives certain individuals to take such extreme and deadly, tragic action? And what is the next step for a community touched by such senseless violence and tragedy as Virginia Tech?

 

Joining me now is Peter Sheras. He's clinical psychologist, professor at the University of Virginia and associate director of the Virginia Youth Violence Project.

 

Also joining us here in New York, Richard Arum. He's professor of sociology and education at New York University; and Maury Nation, associate professor in human and organizational development at Vanderbilt University.

 

Welcome to you all. Thanks for being here.

 

I'm going to turn, if I may, to Peter Sheras. There is very little known about the individual who apparently killed himself after these senseless murders. Give us your best assessment as to what is driving most individuals in such a circumstance.

 

PETER SHERAS, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Well, Lou, you're absolutely right in saying that each case is individual, and we're dealing with a specific individual here. So there's obviously a lot of information we still don't know.

 

But in many cases, these extreme acts of violence are committed by people who either have some psychological disorder to begin with.

 

But more often they're committed by people we talk about as having been the victims themselves of violence or humiliation, and they can no longer kind of control the anger that they have and it comes out. And sometimes it comes out in a very dramatic way, as we saw, I think, in this case.

 

DOBBS: Professor Nation, your thoughts?

 

MAURY NATION, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Well, I think, again, it's difficult to characterize. But I think what we've seen in the past, acts of violence here in the last year or so, that there's more than one type. And I think it's dangerous for us to kind of narrow in and say it's always bullying, for example.

 

Bullying is certainly part of it. But if you look at the example in Pennsylvania, you have someone who was just what I call a bad person looking for a target. And schools, college campuses and schools in general have traditionally been soft targets.

 

DOBBS: Professor, I know that as Professor Sheras said in particular, it's very difficult to try to figure out in general what is happening here.

 

But there are certain impulses in this society and culture that has -- that must be driving this. We've had just about 200 murders on our campuses, our all sorts of public schools in this country, over the last 80 years. But they're accelerating.

 

Is there something happening in our culture, our society that you think could be driving it?

 

RICHARD ARUM, PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: I think that's exactly the point. That's the troubling aspect of this, that it's -- although these shootings go way back to 1966 and again, there was an incidence in the '70s, they were extraordinarily rare. And in the '80s and '90s and in this decade, they have occurred almost monthly. This is a terrible manifestation of one, but they've become all too common.

 

DOBBS: Professor Sheras, do you -- I'm told that we've just lost contact with -- with him.

 

Professor Nation, do you -- do you believe there is any specific identifiable cultural or social impulse that is driving this kind of violence?

 

NATION: Well, I think there are a variety of factors, and we, as a culture, know many of them. Certainly the level of violence that our children observe, the access to guns. I mean it's true that, to some degree, that there's always been issues of aggression among be school-age children. But when you mix that with also the access to guns. And there's certainly the increased likelihood that you're going to have deadly violence, as we've seen in the last few years.

 

DOBBS: Professor Arum, the idea that this culture is creating -- is creating the forces, or is at least playing a major role in driving these people to violence, where does it begin? And what, if anything, can be done about it?

 

ARUM: I think dismissing as -- around the availability of guns is a mistake, because there were guns available in our society in the '50s and '60s and even the '70s and you did not see these incidents occurring repeatedly in this way. Something changed in the '70s where today, we see these incidents repeatedly.

 

DOBBS: What changed?

 

ARUM: Well, I would argue that authority relationships in schools changed. And led to a widespread problem of failed socialization of youth, particularly boys, and also widespread problems of school disorder and violence.

 

DOBBS: Now, if you will, put that in language that I can understand. Authority, boys, what happened? What changed? Are we talking about discipline in the schools?

 

ARUM: We are talking -- we are talking about discipline, but notice that these incidents that have increasingly happened in the '80s and '90s are almost always done by men who feel their masculinity threatened and resort to these cultural scripts with the use of guns to act out.

 

But again, why in the '80s and '90s and today and not earlier? And again, I would argue that discipline in our schools earlier is not working. And young men, in particular, are not internalizing the norms and values of our society. And periodically, you get acute manifestations of this, as in these rampage school shootings.

 

DOBBS: We have had trouble maintaining our contact which satellite with the Professor Sheras.

 

Professor, we've got you back just in time for a concluding thought, if you would on this.

 

SHERAS: Well, it's important to realize that how we manage anger, how we teach people to do that, is very much the issue. There are so many models for people to see now that involve acting out anger in these very public ways, these very open ways and these very catastrophic ways.

 

And even the fact that you have to remember schools are still not the most violent places where people -- where people exist. As bad as this shooting is, there has been a decrease in violence since the middle '90s schools as a rule and, especially as it relates school shootings. And then we have a big explosion like this.

 

But there are lots of murders, unfortunately, that occur in a lot of settings. We need to be vigilant in schools, but we have to not overreact and just deal with the big issues but, as we said before, the underlying issues about the atmosphere of school, the attachment at school and whether people seek help.

 

Just about everyone who commits an act like this has made a threat. And if we paid attention to those threats, I think we'd be better off.

 

DOBBS: Professor Peter Sheras, we thank you very much.

 

Professor Richard Arum, we thank you here at New York.

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I think what is not sitting well with me is that this type of coverage tries to put these killings in the context of a generally more violent society and lack of anger management (a problem whose existence I don't deny), but I think in this case it is a specific action of a person with a history of unmonitored serious mental illness. Yes, it took this particularly spectacular, telegenic form because we live in this particular type of media-saturated, gun-fetishizing society, but 50 years ago he could just as well have stabbed his parents to death or whatever.

 

In other words, what bothers me is that the way we seem to deal with the mentally ill is to punish them after they commit the act (and tack on a bunch of political agendas for good measure), rather than put in place measures that prevent those actions with necessary attention ahead of time. There were all sorts of warning signs with this kid, apparently, and not just of the vague "loner/misfit" type.

 

And oh boy, even on supposedly enlightened NPR some caller left a message to the effect that, if foreigners think living in america is too much pressure, then maybe they should go back to where they came from. Great.

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I think what is not sitting well with me is that this type of coverage tries to put these killings in the context of a generally more violent society and lack of anger management (a problem whose existence I don't deny), but I think in this case it is a specific action of a person with a history of unmonitored serious mental illness. Yes, it took this particularly spectacular, telegenic form because we live in this particular type of media-saturated, gun-fetishizing society, but 50 years ago he could just as well have stabbed his parents to death or whatever.

 

In other words, what bothers me is that the way we seem to deal with the mentally ill is to punish them after they commit the act (and tack on a bunch of political agendas for good measure), rather than put in place measures that prevent those actions with necessary attention ahead of time. There were all sorts of warning signs with this kid, apparently, and not just of the vague "loner/misfit" type.

 

And oh boy, even on supposedly enlightened NPR some caller left a message to the effect that, if foreigners think living in america is too much pressure, then maybe they should go back to where they came from. Great.

You will get no argument from me that our society does an appallingly inadequate job with regards to treatment of people, including our youth, with social disorders and mental illness, and many fall through the cracks. I think falling through the cracks might even be the norm (due to not much can be done unless it results in a crime). Appalling. Exactly as you have described. :lol:

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In other words, what bothers me is that the way we seem to deal with the mentally ill is to punish them after they commit the act (and tack on a bunch of political agendas for good measure), rather than put in place measures that prevent those actions with necessary attention ahead of time. There were all sorts of warning signs with this kid, apparently, and not just of the vague "loner/misfit" type.

 

The laws in the US have consistently expanded the rights of the mentally ill to be free of unwanted medical intervention and interference.

Edited by Rail Paul
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Violent crime rose steadily in the United States throughout the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s, peaking in the mid-1990s, since when it has just as steadily declined.

 

I think that's a more useful index of how society is doing than the single indicator of school shootings.

 

Much crap on TV this morning. Everyone up-to-date with the American Idol angle of the story? You couldn't make this rubbish up.

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