Doctors and the Medical Profession

[mongo_jones]

you should see what adjunct faculty, who make the up the large majority of hires in american academia, make every year, often after more than 7 years of driving the freeways from one class to another.

 

any way you slice it, doctors make a lot of money.

[mongo_jones]

It takes a doctor a long damn time to get to those high salaries. You can be in a residency for up to 6 years, and then maybe a fellowship after that, and you're making less than 40K.

 

Yep.

 

And I repeat:

 

 

Subtract malpractice premiums and they're left with...and not to mention the debt from opening a practice or buying into one, student loans...

 

after malpractice premiums are subtracted:

 

After all this training, and a few more years on the job, experienced doctors earn among the highest incomes of any occupation. The latest available data shows that the median income for all physicians (after expenses like malpractice insurance) is $160,000. Surgeons earn the highest average net income ($240,000) while pediatricians earn the lowest ($126,000.)

 

and, of course, doctors are not the only ones with student loans--they're only among the ones who have less trouble paying theirs off.

[Miguel Gierbolini]

But don't people who want to achieve that title go through more hoops and rigmaroles thant most other professions? don't they deal with more risk than other metiers? And, these days, insurance clerks magic wands carry more power than a doctor's knowledge and experience? I don't need this shit. I don't want future medical practitioners, to be second rate students.

 

Shit, if we are going to resent things, resent some other bullshiters than those that deal with my health.

 

<I am not going to deal with academics as much as I respect, and in some ways envy them, but what they do, does not compare, in importance to my life, to what doctors do>

[Miguel Gierbolini]

But don't people who want to achieve that title go through more hoops and rigmaroles thant most other professions? don't they deal with more risk than other metiers? And, these days, insurance clerks magic wands carry more power than a doctor's knowledge and experience? I don't need this shit. I don't want future medical practitioners, to be second rate students.

 

Shit, if we are going to resent things, resent some other bullshiters than those that deal with my health.

 

<I am not going to deal with academics as much as I respect, and in some ways envy them, but what they do, does not compare, in importance to my life, to what doctors do>

 

 

It is late now. I am going to take my pills.

[mongo_jones]

my only point is that doctors make a lot of money, even after you adjust for everything.

[g.johnson]

Subtract malpractice premiums and they're left with...and not to mention the debt from opening a practice or buying into one, student loans...

... and they still get paid very well as everyone knows and as is quite proper.

[g.johnson]

But don't people who want to achieve that title go through more hoops and rigmaroles thant most other professions? don't they deal with more risk than other metiers? And, these days, insurance clerks magic wands carry more power than a doctor's knowledge and experience? I don't need this shit. I don't want future medical practitioners, to be second rate students.

 

Shit, if we are going to resent things, resent some other bullshiters than those that deal with my health.

 

<I am not going to deal with academics as much as I respect, and in some ways envy them, but what they do, does not compare, in importance to my life, to what doctors do>

At the risk of being accused of special pleading, lawyers and doctors are more or less guaranteed a job after their training. An academic goes through 3/4 years of undergraduate training, five or more years of post-graduate training, around four years of post-doctoral fellowships and only then, in their early to mid-thirties, a faculty position that might allow them to pay off student loans. And that's when their tenure clock starts. For eight years they have to publish extensively and, if they're in my line, obtain federal funding (currently success in grant applications is about 10%). If they manage that they get decent job security (though tenure is not all that it once was) but modest pay (with some exceptions). If they fail, they have to start looking for a new line of work at the age of 40.

[SethG]

So this is the thread where we rant about doctors? Goody.

 

My doctor couldn't even cure the flu I had the other week. He told me to stay in bed and drink "fluids." I could have thought of that, dumbass! Give me a pill or something!

[omnivorette]

So now doctors are supposed to be god, too. "cure me!" And what if there is no "pill" for what you had? I guess that's the doctor's fault.

[omnivorette]

But don't people who want to achieve that title go through more hoops and rigmaroles thant most other professions? don't they deal with more risk than other metiers? And, these days, insurance clerks magic wands carry more power than a doctor's knowledge and experience? I don't need this shit. I don't want future medical practitioners, to be second rate students.

 

Shit, if we are going to resent things, resent some other bullshiters than those that deal with my health.

 

<I am not going to deal with academics as much as I respect, and in some ways envy them, but what they do, does not compare, in importance to my life, to what doctors do>

 

 

Plus you're a rich, rich lawyer. You can afford to pay these overcharging, greedy rich illiterate doctors.

[SethG]

Omni, please never assume I'm serious.

[Ron Johnson]

yes, doctors are right down there with janitors, fruit pickers and walmart stockers.

 

Earnings 

Earnings of physicians and surgeons are among the highest of any occupation. The Medical Group Management Association’s Physician Compensation and Production Survey, reports that median total compensation for physicians in 2005 varied by specialty, as shown in table 2. Total compensation for physicians reflects the amount reported as direct compensation for tax purposes, plus all voluntary salary reductions. Salary, bonus and incentive payments, research stipends, honoraria, and distribution of profits were included in total compensation.

Table 2. Median compensation for physicians, 2005. 

Specialty     Less than two years in specialty     Over one year in specialty

Anesthesiology  $259,948     $321,686

Surgery: General 228,839     282,504

Obstetrics/gynecology: General 203,270     247,348

Psychiatry: General 173,922     180,000

Internal medicine: General 141,912     166,420

Pediatrics: General 132,953     161,331

Family practice (without obstetrics) 137,119     156,010

Footnotes:
(NOTE) Source: Medical Group Management Association, Physician Compensation and Production Report, 2005.

 

that's from the u.s department of labor.

 

Subtract malpractice premiums and they're left with...and not to mention the debt from opening a practice or buying into one, student loans...

 

and that makes them different than other professions, how? I pay malpractice premiums, and have paid all the rest.

 

if they wanted to make a shitload of money they should've been hedge fund managers.

 

 

 

[Orik]

if they wanted to make a shitload of money they should've been hedge fund managers.

 

do you know what the tuition is like in hedge fund manager school?

[Behemoth]

But don't people who want to achieve that title go through more hoops and rigmaroles thant most other professions? don't they deal with more risk than other metiers? And, these days, insurance clerks magic wands carry more power than a doctor's knowledge and experience? I don't need this shit. I don't want future medical practitioners, to be second rate students.

 

Shit, if we are going to resent things, resent some other bullshiters than those that deal with my health.

 

<I am not going to deal with academics as much as I respect, and in some ways envy them, but what they do, does not compare, in importance to my life, to what doctors do>

At the risk of being accused of special pleading, lawyers and doctors are more or less guaranteed a job after their training. An academic goes through 3/4 years of undergraduate training, five or more years of post-graduate training, around four years of post-doctoral fellowships and only then, in their early to mid-thirties, a faculty position that might allow them to pay off student loans. And that's when their tenure clock starts. For eight years they have to publish extensively and, if they're in my line, obtain federal funding (currently success in grant applications is about 10%). If they manage that they get decent job security (though tenure is not all that it once was) but modest pay (with some exceptions). If they fail, they have to start looking for a new line of work at the age of 40.

 

I think the key mistake people make when looking at salaries for different positions is in assuming it has anything to do with the degree of "difficulty" of the job. I've come to the conclusion that it has a lot more to do with the level of individual responsibility one is willing to take on. Ergo, CEOs, coaches, hedge fund managers, college presidents, doctors and lawyers will always be paid more than, say, mathematicians in academia. And as much as I resent it as it applies to myself, I think the system is basically fair. I would also say that for a lot of science people I meet, the lack of responsibility is an attractive part of the job, sometimes to their student's detriment.

[Rail Paul]

But don't people who want to achieve that title go through more hoops and rigmaroles thant most other professions? don't they deal with more risk than other metiers? And, these days, insurance clerks magic wands carry more power than a doctor's knowledge and experience? I don't need this shit. I don't want future medical practitioners, to be second rate students.

 

Shit, if we are going to resent things, resent some other bullshiters than those that deal with my health.

 

<I am not going to deal with academics as much as I respect, and in some ways envy them, but what they do, does not compare, in importance to my life, to what doctors do>

At the risk of being accused of special pleading, lawyers and doctors are more or less guaranteed a job after their training. An academic goes through 3/4 years of undergraduate training, five or more years of post-graduate training, around four years of post-doctoral fellowships and only then, in their early to mid-thirties, a faculty position that might allow them to pay off student loans. And that's when their tenure clock starts. For eight years they have to publish extensively and, if they're in my line, obtain federal funding (currently success in grant applications is about 10%). If they manage that they get decent job security (though tenure is not all that it once was) but modest pay (with some exceptions). If they fail, they have to start looking for a new line of work at the age of 40.

 

I think the key mistake people make when looking at salaries for different positions is in assuming it has anything to do with the degree of "difficulty" of the job. I've come to the conclusion that it has a lot more to do with the level of individual responsibility one is willing to take on. Ergo, CEOs, coaches, hedge fund managers, college presidents, doctors and lawyers will always be paid more than, say, mathematicians in academia.

 

Airline pilots are another example of this. The responsibility for a huge aircraft and hundreds of lives pays a lot more than the responsibility for a small commuter plane and eight people.

 

The small number of top seniority pilots in major airlines make an incredible amount of money for hours actually worked, probably in the (successful) hedge fund manager league on a per hour basis.

 

US federal regs limit the pilot to about 85 hours of total work time a month. A senior pilot will make between $225,000 and $300,000 (or more) per year, and will typically draw a 777 or A350 long haul run. The actual hours flown, as distinguished from supervising the autopilot, will be about two for each eight hour flight (nine or ten hours on the clock). You're getting 30 years of experience.

 

Contrast that with the commuter run to Hanover NH or Amarillo or Palm Springs where the pilot has 2 years experience, may be making $25,000 a year. And, the guy servicing the plane may have even less experience.

Edited February 10, 2008 by Rail Paul