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(which reminds me - is there any sea food/raw bar sort of place in Brooklyn?)

 

Maison Premiere

 

Right, forgot about that one. And is it very different from a combo of Upstate and one of the many cocktail bars in the EV? Eh, it's just more significant because there are less places.

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Although this topic is often discussed here, there isn't a separate thread for it.   As I contemplate trying to have dinnner at Brooklyn Star -- even though chances are I will have to go back to Ma

Well, the great thing about Brooklyn is that it's a far better place to live than Manhattan. And now we don't have to commute to Manhattan in order to eat food that isn't red sauce Italian or pink ta

Put those goal posts back.     I am not talking about bars which are good, not that good, and bad. I am talking about bars with extensive beer lists*, even if the bar is a dump. I have a dol

I went to littleneck the other night and was disappointed with the raw bar aspect of the restaurant. my fried perch was good, the steamers weren't great and 12 raw littlenecks for 12 bucks was nothing special.. Strong Place had and still probably does, a decent seafood plateau. Drinks perhaps clouded my exact memory but, I want to go back there.

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On the other hand, there's still a huge cheerleading effects in Brooklyn because it's severely underserviced - places like Upstate, Prima, Cukoo and Panther, etc. that open in the EV with nobody noticing, would be an event in WB. (which reminds me - is there any sea food/raw bar sort of place in Brooklyn?)

 

The Old Post Office strikes me as a Billywick version of Upstate - oysters, a few hot dishes, in a bar with okay cocktails - and I'm not aware it's had much cheerleading at all. Maison Premiere likewise seems to have flown mostly under the radar (although it could be all over Daily Candy without me knowing).

 

As for the others, what is Panther? Can't find it. Okay, I hadn't noticed Prima. Fatta Cuckoo, yes, open well over a year. It's slim pickings compared with... oh, I don't need to repeat all those recent Williamsburg openings again, do I?

 

Another smartypants place in Park Slope too, to add to Battersby: Talde.

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On the other hand, there's still a huge cheerleading effects in Brooklyn because it's severely underserviced - places like Upstate, Prima, Cukoo and Panther, etc. that open in the EV with nobody noticing, would be an event in WB. (which reminds me - is there any sea food/raw bar sort of place in Brooklyn?)

 

The Old Post Office strikes me as a Billywick version of Upstate - oysters, a few hot dishes, in a bar with okay cocktails - and I'm not aware it's had much cheerleading at all. Maison Premiere likewise seems to have flown mostly under the radar (although it could be all over Daily Candy without me knowing).

 

As for the others, what is Panther? Can't find it. Okay, I hadn't noticed Prima. Fatta Cuckoo, yes, open well over a year. It's slim pickings compared with... oh, I don't need to repeat all those recent Williamsburg openings again, do I?

 

Another smartypants place in Park Slope too, to add to Battersby: Talde.

 

You mean the same three, one of which is open twice a week?

 

eta: anyway, I think you understand my point. The real transformation ends up being that WB is more of downtown manhattan, not that it's its own thing.

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You mean the same three, one of which is open twice a week?

 

eta: anyway, I think you understand my point. The real transformation ends up being that WB is more of downtown manhattan, not that it's its own thing.

 

As I said, the difference between us is that I think it's replaced downtown Manhattan, because I see very little similar action there. It's much easier to find restaurants - as opposed to porchetta panini - worth reviewing in Billywick.

 

As for the same three, I mean St Anselm, Allswell, Five Leaves, Gwynett Street, Isa, Brooklyn Star, The Commodore, Roebling Tea Rooms, Fat Goose, Frej, Post Office, Traif, The Rabbit Hole, Le Comptoir, Sel de Mer, Miller's Tavern, Walter Foods, Maison Premiere, La Superior (arguably), Mable's, and I know I've forgotten some.

 

This is not going back as far as Rye or Roberta's, which are veterans by now.

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Maison Premiere got a lot of press when it opened. And it's always been busy when I've been there. They have an oyster happy hour that's a great deal, too.

 

Ditto. I've never been to Maison Premiere when it wasn't pretty much slammed.

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Half of me agrees with Orik when he says the NBC scene is "over". But the other half of me doesn't. And that other half wants to write a post about it.

 

Orik's point seems to be that Brooklyn is "over" as a distinct restaurant scene because new openings are places that could've been in Manhattan. But look at the Manhattan restaurants he compares them to: Norther Spy, Back Forty -- Manhattan restaurants that copy the Brooklyn style. You can't say that Brooklyn is now just like the East Village without noting that the East Village turned into Brooklyn a few years ago.

 

Another way to say that Brooklyn is becoming an outpost of Manhattan is to note that Manhattan restaurateurs are opening there. But look at, say, Taavo Somer's Isa. That restaurant is much more experimental than anything Somer has done in Manhattan. So in a sense, it's part of the Brooklyn tradition: people who earned their spurs in Manhattan coming over and taking advantage of lower rents to do something they might be afraid to try in Manhattan.

 

Finally, though, there's the class issue. Orik used to dismiss the Brooklyn restaurant scene as consisting of a few places catering to people who couldn't afford to live in Manhattan. Now, he seems to be saying, it's over because it now consists of a lot of places catering to a lot of people who can't afford to live in Manhattan.

 

Let me explain to you a basic difference between Manhattan and Brooklyn cultures. Manhattan culture has always been built around, and catered for, the wealthy. There's always been a middle class in Manhattan (maybe until now), but they were always beside the point. So the "important" Manhattan restaurants and nightspots were always those that catered for the wealthy.

 

Brooklyn, OTOH, has long been a primarily middle-class community (with a lot of poor spots and a very few rich enclaves). So when people priced out of Manhattan began to move there thirty years ago, what did they find? A place where they weren't a sort of tolerated by-product of the main culture, but rather where they were the main culture. Middle-class people in Brooklyn don't feel like they have their faces pressed against the windows of the places where they real action is, places they can save up to splurge on every once in a while but that aren't really theirs. Middle-class people in Brooklyn are where the action is. Lex once said that NBC really meant "new good neighborhood restaurants." But what I now think it really meant was a scene where all the attention was focused on, where everybody's best work and most innovative work was being done in, mid-price restaurants.

 

Until recently, that's never been the case in Manhattan. There all the best work was done at the very highest and most expensive level. And the middle class has pretty much, historically, been left to rot. I think that's why there's traditionally never been a good restaurant scene on the Upper West Side. Nobody with any talent was interested in catering to that kind of market in Manhattan. But when those kind of people moved to Brownstone Brooklyn, they were the top of the market.

 

What I think shows that Brooklyn is still not a mere outpost of Manhattan is the difference between Isa (and presumably Freja) and Acme. I can say from experience that the food at Acme is better than at Isa (the Spanish Hipster says Freja is better, and I believe him -- but I haven't eaten there yet). But who wouldn't rather hang out at Isa? Acme recognized that to succeed in Manhattan, it had to cater for douchebags. Isa, on the other hand, can at least try to succeed in Brooklyn without pulling in all the models and the men who chase them.

 

When Brooklyn dance clubs begin to look like Tenjune, then we can say Brooklyn is over.

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Wow, that was great sneak. I never thought of it in that way. I feel like I just relived my voyage from the UWS to Brooklyn and the reasons why I did so. or perhaps I liked that you called the people at Acme, Deutsche Marks.

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NBC didn't begin with hipsters, though. NBC began with with the people who moved to places like Park Slope and Cobble Hill in the '80s and '90s. (The restaurant scene beginning in the '90s.) The original "NBC" strip was Smith St. NBC became hipstery at a later stage.

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