Jump to content

Diner kicked out for confronting shouty chef...


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 196
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

My best understanding now - and it may be wrong - is that you misunderstood oakapple's use of the word "expect."

 

If I say, for example, that I don't expect to find a name mispelled in the New Yorker, it's most naturally taken as expressing my expectations as to the standards the magazine should meet. It's odd to take it as some sort of forecast. But I think that's how you've taken oakapple's comment about what one expects from a Times reporter, which is why the conversation has failed to gell in any useful way.

 

ETA: Or is this clearer? I don't expect Times reporters to invent stories. As a matter of forecasting the future, I do expect it will happen again, just as it has happened in the past. But it's not what I expect from them. Any help?

 

Wilfrid, what you are saying is different. Very different. Very few folks out there would dispute that a publication should spell their words correctly. Very few folks would dispute that reporters should not invent stories. Yes, we all know that these things will happen from time to time.

 

And also notice that you are using the words "I expect". That's quite different than "You expect." Follow along.

 

(And don't tell me that I'm being a stickler for words and details. This is the English language and it's the only thing that we have with which to communicate here.)

 

The Oakster situation is different.

 

Here is it in a nutshell:

 

You expect a reporter for the Times to have a keener sense of what's appropriate than a high-school or college student tossing their latest thoughts onto a social networking site.

That "NYT's reporter" took off his reporting cap, put on his blogging cap, and BLOGGED! He didn't report.

He seems to think (or expects) that the standards for "blogging" and "reporting" are the same for employees at the NYT.

 

THEY ARE NOT. I know this for a fact. Different rules and different standards apply. This is true across the entire industry.

 

He further implies that one should agree with his expectations by saying "you expect".

 

If he were saying "I expect", then he is speaking about himself and Oakster can expect whatever he wants to expect. When he says "you expect", he is speaking about what people in general expect and he is way off-base, in my opinion. Invariably, these differences of viewpoint are due to a changing world and that things today are not the same as things were even just a handful of years ago.

 

If Oakster knows what industry standards should be better than the industry itself, I applaud him.

 

Notice how many of the comments to that blog post said that this should never have been posted? A very small percentage. People feel that this is "in scope" in a dining blog. I mean, we feel that this is totally in scope at Mouthfuls to discuss an issue like that.

 

Now if the Oakster had said "I expect that a Times employee would be 'more appropriate' when blogging", then I probably wouldn't have had much of a need to respond. I probably would have thought to myself "Well, Oakster, you can expect whatever you want to expect, but what's inappropriate about blogging about a dramatic and unusual dining situation in a NYT's dining blog. I sure hope you don't expect the Queen of England to never fart when dining with you in private, either."

 

 

Right now, we are going through a radical reordering of all media businesses due to the full-on digital revolution. It is happening at warp speed and hitting us like a tornado. Nothing like this has occured since the Gutenberg press. These changes will be as irreversible as imagining a world with books. Some tiny little newspaper-related side-effects include:

 

1. Restaurant reviewers' roles are changing.

2. Blogging is not reporting.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
If Oakster knows what industry standards should be better than the industry itself, I applaud him.

 

Do you think that no one can criticize Supreme Court decisions?

Only if you have them in a captive audience scenario.

Link to post
Share on other sites
When did Nico pour a canister of salt over the head of a customer who had he audacity to ask for some? Mid 1980s?

 

When did White physically assault his staff?

 

When did Ramsay kick out customers?

 

All of this so old hat. It's not a generational thing.

 

Eta: I'm not condoning the behavior, but I do think it's related to the highly stressful work environment.

it's not the chef's behavior that's generational but the blogging about it by the Times

Link to post
Share on other sites
reflecting on this exchange reminds me that I worked with chefs who would not have hesitated to physically assault a customer who entered the kitchen to tell him to stop yelling at staff.

 

i worked with one guy who might've killed such an interloper.

I had thoughts along similar lines. The guy stepped over the line when he walked into the kitchen.

 

I did several years ago stop going into a place in my neighborhood because of a loud, boorish manager.

Link to post
Share on other sites
(snip)

 

 

Right now, we are going through a radical reordering of all media businesses due to the full-on digital revolution. It is happening at warp speed and hitting us like a tornado. Nothing like this has occured since the Gutenberg press. These changes will be as irreversible as imagining a world with books. Some tiny little newspaper-related side-effects include:

 

1. Restaurant reviewers' roles are changing.

2. Blogging is not reporting.

 

 

Good point.

 

I suspect that restaurant owners and chefs are seeing the downside of this media transformation in several ways. Each negative blog or photo of a meal is a stake in their hearts, and holds the potential of fewer future customers. Is this negative post an outlier, or is it an indicator of many other unhappy customers?

 

Will the investors see this, or will the lenders begin to pull / tighten credit lines?

 

Many chef departures are likely the result of poor reviews. Some reviewers are likely to read blogs, and this could form their outlook prior to even their first on site visit. Add one insecure chef or incompetent employee and the result could be a mess.

Link to post
Share on other sites
sounds like noone was wearing their their grown up pants that day. no customer needs to be hearing a business owner/boss berating his staff and unless the business owner/boss is breaking the law or endangering lives a concerned party should be satisfied with bringing their concerns to that owner/boss' attention.

what if the boss is the one doing the yelling? (Forgione owns the restaurant, no?)

 

a friend of mine watched her waiter abused, in the dining room in her view, by the owner. she's a very mellow, delicate and proper person, rather shy in public. she felt very uneasy, cut her dinner short and told the owner how upsetting it was. he said something dismissive that it was no big deal, he was Italian and couldn't help it. Couldn't help it? my delicate, proper friend grabbed a glass of wine, threw it at a wall and said "ah, i couldn't help it" :lol:

ah, an involuntary reaction. :lol: good for your friend. i did recently tell the owner of a fancy boutique (who was in the middle abusing a staffer) that while he was too busy screaming at the guy to help me, i was searching on my iphone for different boutique to make my purchase. don't people with businesses have sound proofed dungeons for berating their employees, anymore?

Link to post
Share on other sites
reflecting on this exchange reminds me that I worked with chefs who would not have hesitated to physically assault a customer who entered the kitchen to tell him to stop yelling at staff.

 

i worked with one guy who might've killed such an interloper.

I had thoughts along similar lines. The guy stepped over the line when he walked into the kitchen.

 

I did several years ago stop going into a place in my neighborhood because of a loud, boorish manager.

stepping into the kitchen uninvited is always wrong. one should also keep in mind that they have lots of big sharp knives in there

Link to post
Share on other sites
My best understanding now - and it may be wrong - is that you misunderstood oakapple's use of the word "expect."

 

If I say, for example, that I don't expect to find a name mispelled in the New Yorker, it's most naturally taken as expressing my expectations as to the standards the magazine should meet. It's odd to take it as some sort of forecast. But I think that's how you've taken oakapple's comment about what one expects from a Times reporter, which is why the conversation has failed to gell in any useful way.

 

ETA: Or is this clearer? I don't expect Times reporters to invent stories. As a matter of forecasting the future, I do expect it will happen again, just as it has happened in the past. But it's not what I expect from them. Any help?

4b rather than 4a.

 

(I would take the same approach with alien life forms.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
If Oakster knows what industry standards should be better than the industry itself, I applaud him.

Do you think that no one can criticize Supreme Court decisions?

Gosh, this is a constant, never-ending meme - that Chambo thinks that you are not allowed to criticize.

 

You can. You can. You can. Let me count the ways. You can. You can. You can.

 

Like I said, if Oakster said "I expect ...", I'm cool with that. When he says "You expect ...", he is now speaking on behalf of others. That's beyond criticism. That's putting words in other folks' mouths and projecting his potentially-off-base viewpoint onto others.

 

Sometimes people resist that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The Oakster situation is different.

 

Here is it in a nutshell:

 

You expect a reporter for the Times to have a keener sense of what's appropriate than a high-school or college student tossing their latest thoughts onto a social networking site.

That "NYT's reporter" took off his reporting cap, put on his blogging cap, and BLOGGED! He didn't report.

He seems to think (or expects) that the standards for "blogging" and "reporting" are the same for employees at the NYT.

 

THEY ARE NOT. I know this for a fact. Different rules and different standards apply. This is true across the entire industry.

 

He further implies that one should agree with his expectations by saying "you expect".

 

That's nothing like what he said, as anyone can see by reading the quote. There is no relevant distinction between "I expect," "you expect" and "one expects" in the context I am describing.

 

I see from the previous post that you still don't understand. Whether oakapple is speaking for himself or generally, it's no response to say that his expectations, in fact, go unfulfilled. That Times journalists have occasionally invented stories does not mean that there is no expectation - on the part of individual readers, or the public in general - that they should not. You can argue that the expectation is inappropriate, but saying that, as it happens, it isn't met, kind of misses the point (as my examples were designed to show).

 

Any closer to getting it yet?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...