NY as a sports town

[Sneakeater]

is Stanton Social a restaurant or a bar? both definitely...and it (was anyway) a pretty significant nightlife spot. ditto for Pravda. ditto for E.O.

 

Nononononononononono. Pravda is a bar. Stanton Social is a lounge. EO you're right about.

[Nathan]

Nathan's not saying that most restaurants are really bars. He's saying that most bars are really restaurants.

 

I can conceive of that being true in small cities (MAYBE), but is that true in any major urban center, I wonder? None that I've been to (in America, I mean).

 

 

not quite:

 

1. in suburbia, there are no bars. rather, there are restaurants (mainly chains) with bars that people use as bars for lack of alternatives.

not true in the NY burbs BTW. Lots of bar bars - maybe serve a burger.

 

 

right. they serve food.

but agreed that the closer you are to a major city the more non-chain places you will find (though when they're all microwaving the same food they're almost a chain)

but you would never take children there. You would take children to an Applebee's or a BW3. These places are not restaurants. No tables, probably no waitress. There are lots of them on the North Shore. I can probably name 20 off the back of my hand. Maybe half of them have no food at all.

 

 

fair enough, you've found a NYC effect that differentiates LI from other suburbia

 

and to be honest, Wisconsin has plenty of such places as well (except that people do take their kids to bars there)

[Sneakeater]

Back to audible and how many people on this food board didn't know what it meant. I think that is to be expected and doesn't damn NYC to not being a good sports town. If you went to a chicago bear discussion forum and referenced sous vide, most people on that board would have no idea what you were takling about even though Chicago is a serious food town.

 

I'm sure everybody cares, but I agree with Mitchell completely.

[Nathan]

after midnight Pastis is filled with people just drinking (along with those still eating)...the same is true of almost any restaurant bar open after midnight.

there's your basic test...if it's a restaurant bar and it's open after midnight...it's also a bar bar.

 

But those places are STILL OUTNUMBERED by normal stand-alone bars. It can't even be close.

 

 

in NY you're right (but only in NY). but the point is that these places are a significant percentage of the NY bars sans tvs.

Exactly. They're a significant percentage of the NY bars that don't have TVs but they're an insignificant percentage of the total number of bars. Therefore most NYC bars have TVs. QED.

 

nah, they're a significant part of NY nightlife.

 

is Stanton Social a restaurant or a bar? both definitely...and it (was anyway) a pretty significant nightlife spot. ditto for Pravda. ditto for E.O.

 

Nononononononononono. Pravda is a bar. Stanton Social is a lounge.

 

you dispute that both do serious restaurant business? heck, I think they both have Times reviews or at least Dining Briefs!

or are you saying that a lounge is different than a bar? hmmm...well, lounges only exist in major cities then...and they usually have tvs with a variety of games on (like every lounge I've been to in Atlanta for example....)

 

and going back 15 pages....here's an example: I was eating at Reef the other week...it's a serious restaurant...it would be taken seriously in NY. and there are tvs at the bar...which would unlikely in NY. in Houston it would be almost unheard of not to have them (Anvil is the only bar I can think of that doesn't....and it does serve food...and brunch for that matter)....that's just the way it is.

[Nathan]

of course. no one ever said most restaurants were also bars.

 

What you did say was

 

You're not including restaurant bars which is most bars.

 

So of only restaurants like Pastis are bars, and most bars are restaurant bars, your claim is that places like Pastis outnumber regular bars. GIve it up.

 

most bars in NY serve food. that is correct.

You've missed the point. Do you concede that regular bars (whether they serve food or not) vastly outnumber restaurants like Pastis that do significant bar business?

 

 

of course

[Anthony Bonner]

Nathan's not saying that most restaurants are really bars. He's saying that most bars are really restaurants.

 

I can conceive of that being true in small cities (MAYBE), but is that true in any major urban center, I wonder? None that I've been to (in America, I mean).

 

 

not quite:

 

1. in suburbia, there are no bars. rather, there are restaurants (mainly chains) with bars that people use as bars for lack of alternatives.

not true in the NY burbs BTW. Lots of bar bars - maybe serve a burger.

 

 

right. they serve food.

but agreed that the closer you are to a major city the more non-chain places you will find (though when they're all microwaving the same food they're almost a chain)

but you would never take children there. You would take children to an Applebee's or a BW3. These places are not restaurants. No tables, probably no waitress. There are lots of them on the North Shore. I can probably name 20 off the back of my hand. Maybe half of them have no food at all.

 

 

fair enough, you've found a NYC effect that differentiates LI from other suburbia

 

and to be honest, Wisconsin has plenty of such places as well (except that people do take their kids to bars there)

you assert something that once again turns out to be bullshit and then instead of being gracious about it, you act like a prick. Sweet.

[Nathan]

is Stanton Social a restaurant or a bar? both definitely...and it (was anyway) a pretty significant nightlife spot. ditto for Pravda. ditto for E.O.

 

Nononononononononono. Pravda is a bar. Stanton Social is a lounge. EO you're right about.

 

 

no. Stanton Social is a lounge upstairs. downstairs and the first 1/3d (where the tables are) is definitely a restaurant where everyone is having dinner (and they take reservations). they even distinguish between the two in the decor.

 

Pravda upstairs is a bar. downstairs there is a bar plus a dining area that takes reservations and is filled with people eating dinner (during dinner hours).

[g.johnson]

two different (but related) contentions:

 

1. Most NY bars serve food (i.e. they are restaurants on some level)

2. a significant number of NY bars are also notable (in some sense) as restaurants.

Remember how you got yourself up this particular creek.

 

Your claims were:

 

1. Most bars are restaurant bars.

2. Most restaurant bars do not have TVs showing sports.

3. Ergo, most bars do not have TVs showing sports.

 

It seems to me that 1. is obviously false. However, if you are claiming that most NYC bars should be counted as restaurants because they serve food, then you may save 1 but 2 is then clearly false. In either case the your argument fails.

[Nathan]

Nathan's not saying that most restaurants are really bars. He's saying that most bars are really restaurants.

 

I can conceive of that being true in small cities (MAYBE), but is that true in any major urban center, I wonder? None that I've been to (in America, I mean).

 

 

not quite:

 

1. in suburbia, there are no bars. rather, there are restaurants (mainly chains) with bars that people use as bars for lack of alternatives.

not true in the NY burbs BTW. Lots of bar bars - maybe serve a burger.

 

 

right. they serve food.

but agreed that the closer you are to a major city the more non-chain places you will find (though when they're all microwaving the same food they're almost a chain)

but you would never take children there. You would take children to an Applebee's or a BW3. These places are not restaurants. No tables, probably no waitress. There are lots of them on the North Shore. I can probably name 20 off the back of my hand. Maybe half of them have no food at all.

 

 

fair enough, you've found a NYC effect that differentiates LI from other suburbia

 

and to be honest, Wisconsin has plenty of such places as well (except that people do take their kids to bars there)

you assert something that once again turns out to be bullshit and then instead of being gracious about it, you act like a prick. Sweet.

 

 

huh? I conceded that you had a point about LI (I don't think one example disputes the larger point at all).

[g.johnson]

of course. no one ever said most restaurants were also bars.

 

What you did say was

 

You're not including restaurant bars which is most bars.

 

So of only restaurants like Pastis are bars, and most bars are restaurant bars, your claim is that places like Pastis outnumber regular bars. GIve it up.

 

most bars in NY serve food. that is correct.

You've missed the point. Do you concede that regular bars (whether they serve food or not) vastly outnumber restaurants like Pastis that do significant bar business?

 

 

of course

Do you also concede that most bars (whether they serve food or not) also have TVs tuned to sport?

[Ron Johnson]

I repeat most towns (and many cities) don't have any bars if you rule out restaurants.

 

This is absurd and patently false, but I am not surprised you are ignorant of the fact that many, many cities and towns have lots of establishments that are bars first and foremost and not restaurants.

[g.johnson]

ANd before Nathan starts wriggling about what he did or didn't say about NYC bars, let us remind ourselves.

 

Is it really contestable that NYC is utterly unique in most of its bars not being sports bars????

 

Well I think I have demonstrated pretty well that it is contestible and, in fact, plain wrong.

[Lex]

I repeat most towns (and many cities) don't have any bars if you rule out restaurants.

 

This is absurd and patently false, but I am not surprised you are ignorant of the fact that many, many cities and towns have lots of establishments that are bars first and foremost and not restaurants.

Ah. Fresh troops have joined the battle.

[Nathan]

two different (but related) contentions:

 

1. Most NY bars serve food (i.e. they are restaurants on some level)

2. a significant number of NY bars are also notable (in some sense) as restaurants.

Remember how you got yourself up this particular creek.

 

Your claims were:

 

1. Most bars are restaurant bars.

2. Most restaurant bars do not have TVs showing sports.

3. Ergo, most bars do not have TVs showing sports.

 

It seems to me that 1. is obviously false. However, if you are claiming that most NYC bars should be counted as restaurants because they serve food, then you may save 1 but 2 is then clearly false. In either case the your argument fails.

 

yeah, I'd knew you get there

 

1. most bars in the U.S. are restaurant bars...and to the extent that they are bars are primarily sports bars (points 2 to 6 below are restricted to Manhattan and gentrified Brooklyn)

2. most bars in NY serve food but are not primarily restaurants (this is the point I incorrectly stated and locked myself into yesterday...and which you've caught me on)

3. a significant number of NY bars are primarily restaurants during the day that become bars on or about midnight.

4. almost all the NY bars that are primarily restaurants during the day do not have tvs

5. a significant amount of NY bars that are not primarily restaurants (whether they serve food) do not have tvs...a significant amount do.

6. what percentage of the total that 3 and 5 add up to is large...whether it's over 50% I do not know.

7. regardless, the percentage elsewhere is 99%

 

conclusion: televised sports are not a primary focus of NY nightlife the way it is in other American cities

 

edit: changed "significant" to "primary" in the conclusion

[Nathan]

I repeat most towns (and many cities) don't have any bars if you rule out restaurants.

 

This is absurd and patently false, but I am not surprised you are ignorant of the fact that many, many cities and towns have lots of establishments that are bars first and foremost and not restaurants.

Ah. Fresh troops have joined the battle.

 

not in:

 

suburban Michigan, suburban Florida (and its cities outside of Miami), suburban or urban Texas (with the exception of college bars...but as noted up the thread, college bars are understandably excluded), suburban or urban Oklahoma, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland.