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A friend of mine was recently forced to taste wines in in FMRI experiment. It turns out it's different delivered by tube when you're lying on your back in a noisy machine.   They then had him blind

 

A cynical person might think ...

 

"The life of a cynic is a sad and dreary one" - Chambo.

 

 

If you think that the guy profiled here is going to knowingly pawn off his flawed wines at a charity event, you think differently than I.

 

If you further think that he would then take a tax deduction for the full value of those real bottles, which is a felony punishable by jail time, you are a chronic cynic.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/14/nyregion/william-koch-on-counterfeit-wine-crusade-testifies-against-rudy-kurniawan.html

 

Come on, Sir Balex, you are too good of a man to allow jealousy to turn you into a cynic. Snap out of it !

 

 

So I don't know much about American plutocrats but this one .. is he the wife-beater, climate change denier?

I get my Koch brothers mixed up.

 

So in England you can't take a tax break on that sort of thing, but I thought you could in the US? My bad.

 

I have participated in a charity auction where somebody bought a case of very expensive wine using funds from a charity he was a trustee of, and then drank it himself.

That's bad too. It does happen.

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So in England you can't take a tax break on that sort of thing, but I thought you could in the US? My bad.

 

In the US, you can indeed receive tax benefit from the true value of donations made but not from some false inflated value.

 

Balex was talking about Koch knowingly doing this.

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So in England you can't take a tax break on that sort of thing, but I thought you could in the US? My bad.

 

In the US, you can indeed receive tax benefit from the true value of donations made but not from some false inflated value.

 

Balex was talking about Koch knowingly doing this.

 

 

So just to be clear, in this case he would, assuming that they are genuine, get a tax deduction on the current market value of a genuine case of Petrus 82?

(ETA £44,667.00 from frw at the moment. No idea about provenance)

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The Government would have to prove that he knew (not just suspected) they were fake at the time he took the deductions.

 

Right, but if his subsequent investigations revealed that the wine's provenance was highly suspect, he would have been well advised to restate the value of the wines for purposes of the deductions. And, perhaps hold out for a casualty loss as the victim of a fraud.

 

Especially if he was commissioning stories about his role in uncovering this fraud. The IRS may be corrupt, but they're not stupid or politically unaware. He's a big, rich, and entirely unsympathetic target.

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The Government would have to prove that he knew (not just suspected) they were fake at the time he took the deductions.

Right, but if his subsequent investigations revealed that the wine's provenance was highly suspect, he would have been well advised to restate the value of the wines for purposes of the deductions. And, perhaps hold out for a casualty loss as the victim of a fraud.

 

Especially if he was commissioning stories about his role in uncovering this fraud. The IRS may be corrupt, but they're not stupid or politically unaware. He's a big, rich, and entirely unsympathetic target.

 

You're absolutely right.

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We started here ...

 

A cynical person might think: you are Koch and you have a cellar full of fake wines, and because you have made a big song and dance about Rudy K., every single person in the fine wine world knows this. So you can't sell them to anyone--especially not the pristine whole cases of Petrus 82 which is the most forged wine on the planet. But you can give them away, and if it is a charitable event you can get the tax break too (?).

Now we're here ...

 

So just to be clear, in this case he would, assuming that they are genuine, get a tax deduction on the current market value of a genuine case of Petrus 82?

(ETA £44,667.00 from frw at the moment. No idea about provenance)

 

Wow, Chambo slips out the back door for a second, snags a custom degustation menu at Pedro Roca, and returns to Balex doing his best Plotz impression ie "no I didn't say that, I said this".

 

Fine, no problemo, Chambo will go with the flow.

 

If you want to turn this into a tax education class of the American plutocratic class, fine. Chambo's game.

 

But first, I am heartened to see that you now consider the Koch wines to be genuine (and thereby implicitly agree that Koch is a super mench with real philanthropic feelings). Chambo's glad to see that you've turned away from your cynical, dark side and you're now feeling the force. Bravo, Balex !

 

Professor Chambo will now proceed to give the lecture on Plutocratic Taxation in America.

 

Our teaching assistants can then chime in and assist Balex with his ensuing questions and other related details and odds and ends.

 

1) Koch would not get a tax deduction of the current market value. Assuming he itemizes deductions (which he most likely does), he would potentially have the ability to reduce his taxable income by the current market value.

 

1a) Note that at higher levels of income, the benefit of these itemized deductions start to disappear.

 

2) We now need to estimate the rate of taxation on Koch's taxable income in order to understand his potential benefit.

 

3) His rate of taxation is probably about 0% ... because his taxable income is probably about $0 ... if not, he should probably fire his tax / accounting advisory teams.

 

4) True American Plutocrats don't need to pay taxes ! The system can be gamed easily as you keep creating enough corporations and shells and keep shuffling losses here and gains there, etc etc etc.

 

5) If the plutocrat is paying taxes, it's most likely a voluntary patriotic act, frequently done for facilitating his future entry into the political system in order to enact new legislation to ensure that future generations of plutocrats don't pay any of these nasty and brutish taxes. Plutocrats refer to this selfless act as "taking one for the team".

Hence, in the grand scheme of things, Koch receives no benefit from his charitable donation.
Discuss if you must ...
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Saying "Assuming X" is not the same as saying "X", Chambo. I don't know whether these wines are genuine or not, and whether this was a #Fakepetrusparty or the last 12 real bottles of Petrus 82 in the world. How could I?

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We started here ...

 

A cynical person might think: you are Koch and you have a cellar full of fake wines, and because you have made a big song and dance about Rudy K., every single person in the fine wine world knows this. So you can't sell them to anyone--especially not the pristine whole cases of Petrus 82 which is the most forged wine on the planet. But you can give them away, and if it is a charitable event you can get the tax break too (?).

Now we're here ...

 

So just to be clear, in this case he would, assuming that they are genuine, get a tax deduction on the current market value of a genuine case of Petrus 82?

(ETA £44,667.00 from frw at the moment. No idea about provenance)

 

Wow, Chambo slips out the back door for a second, snags a custom degustation menu at Pedro Roca, and returns to Balex doing his best Plotz impression ie "no I didn't say that, I said this".

 

Fine, no problemo, Chambo will go with the flow.

 

If you want to turn this into a tax education class of the American plutocratic class, fine. Chambo's game.

 

But first, I am heartened to see that you now consider the Koch wines to be genuine (and thereby implicitly agree that Koch is a super mench with real philanthropic feelings). Chambo's glad to see that you've turned away from your cynical, dark side and you're now feeling the force. Bravo, Balex !

 

Professor Chambo will now proceed to give the lecture on Plutocratic Taxation in America.

 

Our teaching assistants can then chime in and assist Balex with his ensuing questions and other related details and odds and ends.

 

1) Koch would not get a tax deduction of the current market value. Assuming he itemizes deductions (which he most likely does), he would potentially have the ability to reduce his taxable income by the current market value.

 

1a) Note that at higher levels of income, the benefit of these itemized deductions start to disappear.

 

2) We now need to estimate the rate of taxation on Koch's taxable income in order to understand his potential benefit.

 

3) His rate of taxation is probably about 0% ... because his taxable income is probably about $0 ... if not, he should probably fire his tax / accounting advisory teams.

 

4) True American Plutocrats don't need to pay taxes ! The system can be gamed easily as you keep creating enough corporations and shells and keep shuffling losses here and gains there, etc etc etc.

 

5) If the plutocrat is paying taxes, it's most likely a voluntary patriotic act, frequently done for facilitating his future entry into the political system in order to enact new legislation to ensure that future generations of plutocrats don't pay any of these nasty and brutish taxes. Plutocrats refer to this selfless act as "taking one for the team".

Hence, in the grand scheme of things, Koch receives no benefit from his charitable donation.
Discuss if you must ...

 

Ah, if I read you right, Chambo, YOU are more cynical than Balex--by far (at least with respect to the American system of taxation).

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