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The way I see it, once you say that NO food in New York is as good as French food in Paris, the problem then isn't that French food in New York isn't as good as French food in Paris (that's only to be

Further on down the road, before attending a show last night, we stopped here for a glass or two and a bite or two.  Now I do remember the last meal we ate here, absolutely hating my pasta (it was aft

I love old Leslie Gore singles. I listen to them all the time. But I would never claim they’re objectively good the way Bach is good or Prince is good or Ornette Coleman is good.

I love old Leslie Gore singles. I listen to them all the time. But I would never claim they’re objectively good the way Bach is good or Prince is good or Ornette Coleman is good.

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ETA: actually we do have a local food culture - or, two of them: Italian-American and Ashkenazi. And we have great mid-level neighborhood places in those categories that are (arguably) better than any neighborhood mid-level examples of such you'd find elsewhere.

Name names. Don't tell me Altro Paradiso, either ;) .

Hm.

 

Randazzo’s Clam Bar

Emilio’s

L&B, I suppose.

I guess Carbone doesn’t count as mid-level.

Haven’t been to Forlini in years... maybe I should revisit.

 

Patsy’s, Totonno’s, if you want to include NY Pizza under the general category.

 

Okay, maybe there aren’t a LOT. I’m sure there are some I’m missing because I don’t go out for it very often.

 

C'mon.  You're gonna tell me Randazzo's, Emilio's, L & B et al. are actually good restaurants?

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ETA: actually we do have a local food culture - or, two of them: Italian-American and Ashkenazi. And we have great mid-level neighborhood places in those categories that are (arguably) better than any neighborhood mid-level examples of such you'd find elsewhere.

Name names. Don't tell me Altro Paradiso, either ;) .
Hm.

 

Randazzo’s Clam Bar

Emilio’s

L&B, I suppose.

I guess Carbone doesn’t count as mid-level.

Haven’t been to Forlini in years... maybe I should revisit.

 

Patsy’s, Totonno’s, if you want to include NY Pizza under the general category.

 

Okay, maybe there aren’t a LOT. I’m sure there are some I’m missing because I don’t go out for it very often.

C'mon. You're gonna tell me Randazzo's, Emilio's, L & B et al. are actually good restaurants?

 

They always hit the spot.

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I love old Leslie Gore singles. I listen to them all the time. But I would never claim they’re objectively good the way Bach is good or Prince is good or Ornette Coleman is good.

Now I’m confused. Is everything in NY Leslie Gore or just the Italian-Anerican stuff? Granted, I don’t agree that a city needs an indigenous cuisine to be great, so it’s irrelevant to my assessment of NYC whether they’re good eatins or not.

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@seth

 

But if you asked me to pick anywhere in the world to go eat, Roosevelt Avenue wouldn’t be on my list. It would be number 1 in Queens, and a worthwhile destination in New York. The diversity is great, but the best food I can think of there is good to very good at the price, not world class.

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Endorsing Sneak’s argument, it’s a long time since I’ve been to Italy, but in Spain and France you can walk into a railway station buffet or a cheap bar and get a sandwich which would get reviews in New York.

 

The gulf between the food cultures is unbridgeable. There is no comparison. Yes, in New York you can walk down the block and have alternative options from Haiti and Serbia, which is great.

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ETA: actually we do have a local food culture - or, two of them: Italian-American and Ashkenazi. And we have great mid-level neighborhood places in those categories that are (arguably) better than any neighborhood mid-level examples of such you'd find elsewhere.

Name names. Don't tell me Altro Paradiso, either ;) .
Hm.

 

Randazzo’s Clam Bar

Emilio’s

L&B, I suppose.

I guess Carbone doesn’t count as mid-level.

Haven’t been to Forlini in years... maybe I should revisit.

 

Patsy’s, Totonno’s, if you want to include NY Pizza under the general category.

 

Okay, maybe there aren’t a LOT. I’m sure there are some I’m missing because I don’t go out for it very often.

C'mon. You're gonna tell me Randazzo's, Emilio's, L & B et al. are actually good restaurants?

 

They always hit the spot.

 

 

Sure. And a hot dog at Katz's sometimes hits the spot.  But at any of those places mentioned  (Randazzo's, Emilio's, L & B et al.) one can maybe get lucky, on a good day, with one or two dishes. But I've also, at any of those places, had some really bad food.

 

That does not, in my opinion, make for a good restaurant...at ANY price point.

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Endorsing Sneak’s argument, it’s a long time since I’ve been to Italy, but in Spain and France you can walk into a railway station buffet or a cheap bar and get a sandwich which would get reviews in New York.

 

The gulf between the food cultures is unbridgeable. There is no comparison. Yes, in New York you can walk down the block and have alternative options from Haiti and Serbia, which is great.

 

There is a lot of bad food in France. The cheap sandwiches are generally better (not that I have eaten more than a couple in transit) but that's because their bad bread tends to be better than our bad bread. 

 

The second point I agree with, but it still doesn't mean New York is a bad dining town. 

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Has anyone really said NYC is a bad dining town

If the current trend continues - it will be a bad dining town. (I would call it mediocre-minus right now for all the things I stated earlier in the thread.) It was a much better dining town 30-40 years ago.

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To give an example, the meal we had at BB the other night was fine but $110pp was ridiculous. There is no way it's worth it especially with one app for the table, one salad for the table, one dessert for the table and three entrees and one app for the main course. Now granted our bar bill was about $195, but the wines were grossly overpriced and that's typical for NYC mid-level restaurants these days.

 

Thank God Park Side exists in NYC.

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Well, yes and no.  

 

I don't think that a restaurant can support itself, with expected profit margins, almost anywhere in NYC (& I include a chunk of $$ to a semi-celebrity owner, another chunk to a seasoned chef & the real estate) without charging that amount.  Park Side and a couple of other old liners own the property they sit on and don't have to support young celebrity staff.  When I was at the NYT Travel Show recently, Roni M. (Adda) did a presentation where he explicitly stated that they worked backward from what they wanted to charge & had to find a very out of the way place in LIC to do it in.  Almost anywhere else in NYC, he said, they couldn't have opened and expected a profit (included their own expected salary).  Its the unfortunate reality that, if we want decent food, we have to cough up $100+pp to get it, one way or another.  Its the price of the seat, regardless of what you eat and drink.  Orik has pointed out that the food (& drink) cost restaurants very little and & we have several threads on MF talking about this reality of $100+pp.  That's one reason that I agree with joethefoodie about Paris being a better place to eat well (IF you don't miss a lot of the stuff I'd miss & I think that you, Seth G. and even joe would miss over time).

 

However.... the other part of our specific meal at Bar Bete, as you point out, is that the wine bill was ½ of the cost.  Yes, a meal without decent wine is no meal at all.  But, if the 4 of us had the same "overpriced" 2 bottles without the $15pp glasses at the bar beforehand (not to mention your bowl of overpriced (but good) warm olives), we could've each ordered another "overpriced" dish & had the same $110pp bill --but we would've been stuffed without feeling drink deprived.  I'm not saying we shoulda done that, but we could've.... or we could've just coughed up another $15pp, ordered more and then complained about it being $125pp.  It's nice to have had these options.

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