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I asked you in another thread if you enjoy eating this food. Your answer was basically no, but there was a lot going on in your life (don't have time to look for the posts right now). I understand you

It's just too easy to tear this stuff apart for it to be fun, Daniel, but I salute your efforts to be better. 

Daniel, I think that, as a species, we've chosen to set up systems to feed ourselves without (or with minimal) regard to the suffering it causes other species.   That you want to make a dent in that i

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I didn’t know you’re doing this for moral reasons. Te salud. I wish I had that self control. I have a hard enough time not killing people for moral reasons.

What do you eat on an average day?  How much time do you spend cooking?  (Although I guess you usually have a lot of time to cook.  And a kitchen to do it in which.)

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16 hours ago, Daniel said:

All I am saying, at length multiple times, like multiple times, is that there is no way to justify eating meat, outside of saying, “fuck It, I like the taste”.

I have also answered your response, Multiple times, saying I am guilty of it. I have guilt, I am currently responsible, I am hope to change that.   My son isn’t vegan, I’m still saying fuck it, I am an asshole. And I justify it because I simply don’t want the resistance, I don’t have the time.  And I only give him organic and hand massaged meat. No milk, more veg but, not vegan.

 Animal consumption is ruining the environment, it is responsible for multiple world wide pandemics, it is causing food shortages, it’s causing the over use and ineffectiveness of antibiotics, it is lowering  the life expectancy of the consumer and least Important to you but still happening, it is causing the torture and murdering of animals with feelings.   

You accuse me of being preachy. I am just stating facts. I am just responding to questions.  I became vegan, I posted my food, the questions began.  So much so that it was dominating a thread about dinner.  I didn’t start preaching, I merely answered questions.  This is a food board and I am happy to discuss all aspects of food.  I would also encourage you to speak more about the meals you make at home 

can we address your statement that you only eat meat from a local farm.  So just to be sure, the only place your buy your food is from this farm.  You don’t eat of your house?  Or haven’t pre Corona. You don’t eat any product purchased at the grocery store.  You don’t order from the local pizza place, you don’t get Chinese food taken in.  All you eat is meat from this farm or fish purchased from local 130. Is that what you are saying. Like every meal is from this farm? Or vegan. 

Your excuse is claiming ignorance or not being taught to be compassionate to animals.  And that certainly was my excuse as well. I guess it’s your choice to educate yourself.  We are all stuck at home. Maybe watch some Videos.  The big video everyone talks about is Earthling and Food Inc.  I feel like I watched Food Inc but, Not Earthling.  Maybe give that a try.  Maybe go to the farm and asked to watch how an animal is killed, kept.   I would go visit it a petting zoo, a pig is smarter than a dog.  And Easier to train. So why not eat a dog?  Why not eat a pig? Maybe it’s pigs we should have made as pets and dogs we should Be eating.  Maybe dog is more healthy to consume.  
I have been to markets in China and watched dogs being beaten and mistreated and held in cages and in luggage compartments on buses.  I have watched a pig being beaten with an iron rod until it’s intestines came out it’s ass. They both made the same terrible noises.  Actually a pigs screams are worse than a dogs.  I can say, out of all the horrible treatment I have seen animals receive, the pig screaming may be the worst.  

No one is perfect, we all do things that are motivated by pleasure, motivated by our wants and desires.  We are selfish and we are destroying the environment and we are Torturing and murdering innocent intelligent beings who are aware it’s happening. And we are doing it because it’s delicious.  You can’t always be right, you can’t always be the hero.  In this scenario I and you are wrong, we are the bad guy. And that’s ok, you just have to say, my pleasure is worth more than the life of an innocent being.  and that’s ok, but it doesn’t change what is happening.

If every time you ate meat, you knew that someone would torture and murder a puppy, would you still eat meat?  I would say, most people would answer yes. And that’s totally fine and their decision, no judgements from me 
 

 


 

 No, I would not eat meat if knowingly doing so would result in the death of a puppy. And I’d probably not eat meat if I had have seen the animal torture you have seen. 
  I have focused on food insecurity during the pandemic and educating myself about the needs of my neighbors( as I live in a “wealthy” county in NJ) and working on helping with that issue specifically. 
 

 

Very fair point on take out/ delivery. I tend not to order meat in those instances but I have at times. My husband eats meat daily, I do not, cannot as it’s just too much for me. 
 

I’d likely be very happy as a pescatarian. I observe Lent and have no issue doing so. 
 

I understand your point a lot better now. Thank you for addressing it, I appreciate it. 

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As a philosopher. I can do better than "fuck it."

Jeremy Bentham famously said of animals,“The question is not, Can they reason?, nor Can they talk? but, Can they suffer" and that's been a touchstone of the case for animal rights in general. I think he's wrong, and can be shown to be wrong.

1. It is perfectly possible to slaughter an animal with the animal knowing no discomfort, fear or pain (dogs and cats are humanely "put down" every day). There's no suffering involved there.

2. It's also possible to slaughter a human being without the human being suffering.

I think 2. is much more clearly immoral than 1.  Why? Because of a human being's legitimate expectations of a continuing life among family and friends, his/her plans and projects, his/her preferences.

Can we attribute those kinds of expectations to animals? In most cases, surely not. So I'm saying that what's important is not that they can suffer but that they can have a reflective attitude to their own lives, can value their own lives, and can have a pretty clear concept of life continuing as opposed to life ceasing.

Maybe you can attribute these characteristics to some species, but to livestock generally? I don't believe so.

I may be wrong, but that's why I think it's ethical in most cases to eat meat.

I don't, of course, think it's ethical to mistreat animals before they are slaughtered. I take Daniel's point on cruelty of the methods. There you have to find some balance between human needs and animal rights, and that would take a lot more typing...

 

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On 11/7/2020 at 8:55 PM, Stone said:

I didn’t know you’re doing this for moral reasons. Te salud. I wish I had that self control. I have a hard enough time not killing people for moral reasons.

What do you eat on an average day?  How much time do you spend cooking?  (Although I guess you usually have a lot of time to cook.  And a kitchen to do it in which.)

Meals are pretty easy.. It takes about a month to adjust but, once you get a routine, it's easy and becomes routine, sort of speak.  

For breakfast,Bagel with tofu cream cheese, peanut butter on italian sesame bread with banana and u-bet chocolate sauce was yesterday, that was good.. I have never been a breakfast guy so, the same way I am not a dessert guy, you may have more issue than myself. I have been making chinese soups with noodles, i have been doing steamed chinese buns with sichuan pickled vegetables with the soup too.  

Lunch, is either chicken nuggets, or impossible burger, or impossible sausage, or leftovers from dinner.. All last week I made a point to not eat processed food so, i was just bringing in the night before dinner which was either vegetable bean and kale soup, or mapo tofu, or sichuan string beans... Lots of pasta as miss A demands it. 

On the weekends I go to lucky dog organic and usually purchase 44 dollars worth of products.. 2 pounds of potatoes, 2 pounds of carrots, kale, spinach, 4 types of various lettuces, some root vegetables... I usually combine the 4 lettuces so it makes a fun salad.  

The food is really good, it's convenient that I opened a vegan grocery and restaurant 100 steps from my house.. On saturday morning I eat a bacon egg and cheese and a cortado at my place.. They are delicious.  \

I still eat a lot of chinese but more tofu, vegetables and soups. 

I don't like to spend more than 30 minutes cooking for myself these days. I can have a fairly good noodle soup ready by then.  I can do a lot in thirty minutes.  

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Why do you all care so much about Daniel's sudden change to a vegan diet? You're not going to persuade him to start eating meat. And I doubt any of you are going over to his house these days for dinner. Too long without a good squabble? (I don't follow as many threads as I used to since the forum interface changed. Maybe there are ongoing fights about sushi or something, too.)

When I lived in Harlem, I enjoyed eating at the Seasoned Vegan. They had a tasty barbecued "crawfish" po-boy (I think the crawfish were made out of burdock). 

eta: (I know he split this thread off from the Supper thread, but my understanding is that his posts on that thread were provoking the debate and that this thread was intended to quarantine the conversation.)

eta: (I suppose that engaging with the thread extends its life, but I'm genuinely curious.)

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I don’t care about him changing to a vegan diet. Not only do I respect veganism, it’s also far from a novelty: my wife is a vegan. I find veganism much more ethically reputable than those dumb ideas about “respecting the whole animal” after murdering it.

My main reason for being in the thread is that my reasons for choosing to eat meat can’t be reduced to “fuck it.” I’ve actually applied my mind, although of course I may be wrong.

I also can never resist raising the question, never answered (and I don’t mean by Daniel) about how livestock would benefit from the mass slaughter which wide uptake of veganism would prompt.

 

 

 

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And if a Vegan wants to argue that the anti-sex argument is different from theirs, cuz sex has no victim, I'll note that a lot of humans would argue that heterosexual sex is inherently rape.

A postion I personally myself find as flawed as the Vegans'.

 

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