Per Se

[Wilfrid1]

Mouthfuls member #47, Mr John Whiting, favored eGullet with a link to another good kicking administered to Per Se by a British food writer. See the eG Per Se thread, as of 7.10 this morning. The tone is not unlike the Lander review.

 

There may be some British superciliousness at work here. But it's also worth considering how the New York media would be treating some of Per Se's more obvious pomposities and fripperies if the proprietor were French.

[Daisy]

I am going to Per Se for dinner on Monday. I have never set foot in the place but they are already pissing me off.

 

I have been trying, since yesterday morning, to get a copy of the wine list e-mailed to me. When I first inquired I was requested to give my name, the name the reservation was under and the time and date. Then the politely condescending woman I was dealing with said, "You know, our sommeliers delight in helping our guests pair the perfect wine choices with their meals." "That's as may be, I replied, and I know your reputation well, but I would still like to take a look at the list." After further civilized wrangling, during which this woman suggested to me that it would be impossible to choose a wine before choosing ones meal and I said that sometimes people actually choose a wine and then decide what food will best complement it and that I would still like to see the list, she relented and agreed to send it to me.

 

When many hours later I still had no e-mail I called back and after a looong time on hold was reassured by a much less pretentious and very friendly woman that the list would be sent to me. It still hasn't arrived. More time on hold in my future.

[Melonious Thunk]

I am going to Per Se for dinner on Monday. I have never set foot in the place but they are already pissing me off.

 

I have been trying, since yesterday morning, to get a copy of the wine list e-mailed to me. When I first inquired I was requested to give my name, the name the reservation was under and the time and date. Then the politely condescending woman I was dealing with said, "You know, our sommeliers delight in helping our guests pair the perfect wine choices with their meals." "That's as may be, I replied, and I know your reputation well, but I would still like to take a look at the list." After further civilized wrangling, during which this woman suggested to me that it would be impossible to choose a wine before choosing ones meal and I said that sometimes people actually choose a wine and then decide what food will best complement it and that I would still like to see the list, she relented and agreed to send it to me.

 

When many hours later I still had no e-mail I called back and after a looong time on hold was reassured by a much less pretentious and very friendly woman that the list would be sent to me. It still hasn't arrived. More time on hold in my future.

Daisy,

If you PM me your email, I will send it to you.

[Guest Suzanne F]

Mouthfuls member #47, Mr John Whiting, favored eGullet with a link to another good kicking administered to Per Se by a British food writer.  See the eG Per Se thread, as of 7.10 this morning.  The tone is not unlike the Lander review.

 

There may be some British superciliousness at work here.  But it's also worth considering how the New York media would be treating some of Per Se's more obvious pomposities and fripperies if the proprietor were French. 

 

The John Whiting post (scroll down past the pinned opening post).

 

I quite agree with both Lander and Hyman, and yes, my opinion is also based on one visit -- after spending $1,000 for lunch for three, I think it highly unlikely there will ever be a return visit. It does not take multiple visits to form an opinion that the place is not what it is purported to be (the best ever), when the initial visit produces uneven quality of food and service.

[Melonious Thunk]

Mouthfuls member #47, Mr John Whiting, favored eGullet with a link to another good kicking administered to Per Se by a British food writer.  See the eG Per Se thread, as of 7.10 this morning.  The tone is not unlike the Lander review.

 

There may be some British superciliousness at work here.  But it's also worth considering how the New York media would be treating some of Per Se's more obvious pomposities and fripperies if the proprietor were French.  

 

The John Whiting post (scroll down past the pinned opening post).

 

I quite agree with both Lander and Hyman, and yes, my opinion is also based on one visit -- after spending $1,000 for lunch for three, I think it highly unlikely there will ever be a return visit. It does not take multiple visits to form an opinion that the place is not what it is purported to be (the best ever), when the initial visit produces uneven quality of food and service.

 

I've been three times and experienced no "unevenness" in quality of food or service. The service staff are distant and rather serious, but they do their job well and are essentially invisible untill needed. I have no hesitation returning for $300 or $500 when the occasion arises. The food, in every sense was both interesting and delicious. I found minor fault with some of the cheese on one occasion, but that's it. I suspect there is some serious attitude issues at play with these reviews. There is also an inference that the people who love it and rave about it are somehow hypnotic Keller worshippers who have lost all rreason. What bullshit.

 

People complain about small portions. If they bothered to find out in advance, they'd know that is what Per Se does. It is the concept of his serving. Would the same people bitch if they had a traditional Kaiseki meal that it was a lot of small portions and should be changed? I have never left a meal there hungry. Just because some approach it expecting a heavenly epiphany and the rapture and it doesn't happen, is no reason to dump so much on the place. It is just a fucking restaurant. A very good one. One that serves food unlike any other in a setting that is superb.

 

If the price bothers you, then don't go there. I will never go to Masa. I can afford to, but I will not spend $500 on a sushi meal, no matter how trascendent it purports to be. Even the greatest piece of toro will not get me to pay so much for an experience that I don't value. Pwer Se's food is worth it to me. Not once a month, but three or four times a year.

[marcus]

Would the same people bitch if they had a traditional Kaiseki meal that it was a lot of small portions and should be changed?

I don't believe that this is a fair comparison. Gaijin approach a Kaiseki meal as something foreign and exotic. They might enjoy it, or not, but they wouldn't presume to critique the format itself, as they wouldn't view it as being within their sphere of experience and expertise.

 

Per Se is an American restaurant, and it is perfectly valid for some people to categorically criticize the format of very small portions, and for others not to. After visiting Per Se once or twice, those who dislike the format will probably stop going. As long as there are enough tourists and people who like the format, the restaurant will continue to thrive. In all fairness, Keller has been quite clear about stating his philosophy of dining, that less is more. I personally am of the school that more is more, and believe that one appreciates a dish more as one delves into it, and a small dish that may start off exciting, may show its shallowness and flaws if served in a larger portion. I think that the appreciation of wine is very similar, and most of us would agree that one appreciates a great wine more as one continues to drink it.

[Melonious Thunk]

I don't believe that this is a fair comparison.  Gaijin approach a Kaiseki meal as something foreign and exotic.  They might enjoy it, or not, but they wouldn't presume to critique the format itself, as they wouldn't view it as being within their sphere of experience and expertise. 

 

Not exactly the case. Many people who approach Keller's food are imposing a framework on it , but such an imposition should be removed when they see it is not the norm. Some people are incapable of going with the flow and allowing themselves to enjoy an out of norm experience. I know many people who have a hard time tolerating even small deviations from what they are used to. I hear some Americans complaining bitterly about the French style of serving and eating in formal restaurants. They don't approach it as a foreign and exotic experience and they critique it to beat the band. They go to france with this idea that the French are suposed to serve really great food, and when they are confronted with the reality of a high level French meal, they are either intimidated or become defensive and rejecting. I think a lot of that is going on. I have not read one negative review of Per Se from anyone who is knowledgeable about haut cuisine. Mostly these hatche jobs are from gourmet wannabees who don't know their aze from their bees.

[marcus]

Not exactly the case. Many people who approach Keller's food are imposing a framework on it , but such an imposition should be removed when they see it is not the norm. Some people are incapable of going with the flow and allowing themselves to enjoy an out of norm experience. I know many people who have a hard time tolerating even small deviations from what they are used to. I hear some Americans complaining bitterly about the French style of serving and eating in formal restaurants. They don't approach it as a foreign and exotic experience and they critique it to beat the band. They go to france with this idea that the French are suposed to serve really great food, and when they are confronted with the reality of a high level French meal, they are either intimidated or become defensive and rejecting. I think a lot of that is going on. I have not read one negative review of Per Se from anyone who is knowledgeable about haut cuisine. Mostly these hatche jobs are from gourmet wannabees who don't know their aze from their bees.

I think that what you are doing is setting up a straw man, and using it to assert that anyone who seriously criticizes Per Se doesn't know what they're talking about. I would agree that Lander's review was far out and kind of absurd, but many other more or less negative reviews have been quite credible. In addition, stating that one doesn't agree with Keller's culinary philosophy regarding small portions, is not imposing a framework, it is an independent judgment. One may be fully open minded, and just determine that one doesn't enjoy that approach.

 

With regard to reviews by people who are knowledgeable about haut cuisine, Ardoise once stated his evaluation:

 

"for ingredients I will give 15 and virtuosity 17"

 

I would average this out at 16, perhaps 16+. Although I would not characterize this as negative, it is not particularly positive for a restaurant with its aspirations, and looking at gastroville, it is positioned far from the top among leading restaurants of the world.

[Guest Suzanne F]

(I see that while I've been working on this, marcus already responded.)

 

. . . I have not read one negative review of Per Se from anyone who is knowledgeable about haut cuisine.  Mostly these hatche jobs are from gourmet wannabees who don't know their aze from their bees.

 

Hold your horses, there, cowboy! Isn't that more than a bit presumptuous? How do you dare to make such a statement? Taken with what came before,* one could believe that you are saying that the (abnormal) framework within which Keller presents his food is beyond the understanding of everyone except those who agree with you. If that is a correct reading, it is you who are getting defensive and rejecting.

 

If we all want to share an identical experience, we should only go to McDonald's or Morton's. (Is there anything closer to hell on earth?) I am willing to grant you your opinion that in three visits everything was perfection according to your standards, but you should be open to the possibility that someone else's standards may be no less rigorous than yours, and that those other standards just might not be met.

 

*

  . . . Many people who approach Keller's food are imposing a framework on it , but such an imposition should be removed when they see it is not the norm.  Some people are incapable of going with the flow and allowing themselves to enjoy an out of norm experience.  I know many people who have a hard time tolerating even small deviations from what they are used to.  . . .

[Melonious Thunk]

With regard to reviews by people who are knowledgeable about haut cuisine, Ardoise once stated his evaluation:

 

"for ingredients I will give 15 and virtuosity 17"

 

I would average this out at 16, perhaps 16+. Although I would not characterize this as negative, it is not particularly positive for a restaurant with its aspirations, and looking at gastroville, it is positioned far from the top among leading restaurants of the world.

That's pretty high praise from Ardoise. His standards for ingredients are among the highest, considering where his experience is based. I doubt that any US based restaurant would rate higher than 15-16 for ingredients in his rating scale. Would that I had access to the quality he does.

 

I think 19.5 is the highest he has rated a restaurant, and that is l'Ambrosie.

[Melonious Thunk]

How do you dare to make such a statement?

You've gotta be kldding....

 

Taken with what came before,* one could believe that you are saying that the (abnormal) framework within which Keller presents his food is beyond the understanding of everyone except those who agree with you. If that is a correct reading, it is you who are getting defensive and rejecting.

 

I conveyed no such notion. C- for comprehension. It is you who are connecting the two statements to draw an incorrect conclusion or create your own straw man (or woman).

[Guest Suzanne F]

. . . I have not read one negative review of Per Se from anyone who is knowledgeable about haut cuisine. Mostly these hatche jobs are from gourmet wannabees who don't know their aze from their bees.

I kid you not. How can you make such a statement?

[macrosan]

I have not read one negative review of Per Se from anyone who is knowledgeable about haut cuisine.  Mostly these hatche jobs are from gourmet wannabees who don't know their aze from their bees.

When you say "mostly", can you refer me to just one negative review of Per Se which you deem not to be from a "gourmet wannabe" ?

 

Or are you really being coy, and what you mean is that any negative review of Per Se is per se a hatchet job written by a gourmet wannabe?

[R Washburn]

I am with Melonius on this one. Very expensive restaurants are an easy target for critics. My one meal at Per Se was very good, in the same league with ADNY, Daniel and Jeans-Georges. When the price was $125 for the 5-course, I thought it was a bargain as well.

 

At $175, it is a little too expensive for my tastes, but still a great restaurant.

[Melonious Thunk]

I do not mean to gainsay a board member who reports less than stellar service or food at Per Se. I am sure they are reporting what they experienced. My comments relate to the two UK writers who did what seem to be preordained hatchet jobs.

 

I have not read a review that examines his food and offers knowledgeable criticism of the dishes, beyond some broad statements like "oversalted" or "not hot enough." I agree with Cabby's view that the meal is stronger in the early courses based on fish and seafood, though I have had some meat dishes that were uniquely prepared and really delicious (a lamb rib-eye, and a veal dish).

 

What often happens with top restaurants in the spotlight is that people unfamilar with haut cuisine go there because they heard it is "the best restaurant." They have no idea what that means or what the concept is behind the food. They don't understand the food, feel taken when the bill comes and resent the whole deal. I've heard such people talk that way.

 

Then there are people who just cannot accepts a meal with a price tag of $300 per person or more. They laugh at you as though you are a fool or a sucker for eating there,, and tell you they can get just as good food in a local trattoria.

 

The small dish story is a red herring. Anyone who goes there should know that is the style of serving. If they don't, it is their fault for being surprised. Am I saying they should like this style? No. I understand people who prefer fewer and bigger portions. But then, why go to Per Se more than once, as Marcus writes.

In all fairness, Keller has been quite clear about stating his philosophy of dining, that less is more. I personally am of the school that more is more, and believe that one appreciates a dish more as one delves into it, and a small dish that may start off exciting, may show its shallowness and flaws if served in a larger portion.

 

Per Se has become the lightening rod for this kind of talk. Any time a place is dubbed "the best" or #1, some people immediately want to shoot holes in it.

 

Is it perfect? No. Can it be? No. Are its flaws acceptable? IMO, yes. I would like the servers to be looser and less serious. But once I sit down I am more involved with my table mates and the food than I am with the servers, unless they screw up, which has happened very rarely there. I think some people play a "Where's Waldo" game of looking for something wrong so they can write about it.