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Istanbul is in the European part, yes? :lol:

 

This from someone who tried arguing she's half asian mind you. Technically true, I might add.

A tunnel that connects both "sides" is being built under the Straits of Bosphorus, but the diggers uncovered a vast archeological site of great importance, and the tunnel has been all but halted while the dig goes on.

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Guys, I don't have a dog in this race.

 

I would point out, though, that the overwhelming majority of people reading this board, both members and guests, have not read the discussion to which mdibasio is referring - which occurred on a completely different web-site, and therefore don't know:

 

- who "Steve" is

- what Tuckerman's arguments are or were

- what any of these extrapolations or examples are

 

The few Mouthfuls members who are also members of that other web-site surely do know what you are talking about, and you could all continue talking about it over there.

 

If you are moving the discussion here to avoid the sanctions which might be administered by the management of the other web-site, I would make two requests:

 

1. Conduct the discussion in terms which everyone can understand, otherwise you might just as well e-mail among yourselves.

 

2. Bear in mind that this web-site has its own rules, one of which I will quote below. If they are broken, I can assure you that there will be consequences. Thank you.

 

"Mouthfuls prohibits flaming (not only outright abuse but also persistent and systematic personal attacks..."

 

On a personal note, not wearing my Admin hat, I resent people who do not make a regular and positive contribution here using our space to finish off fights they aren't permitted to have on other web-sites.

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I expect you can't move in Turkey without bumping into a mausoleum or a burial ground or a pyramid or something. No wonder they are under-developed.

 

That's what happened in Beirut when they tried to rebuild after the war.

 

(Ignoring what I assume is OA stuff...)

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I did find the way the archeological stuff in Turkey was presented pretty weird. On the one hand being able to walk by/on top of these gorgeous ruins and bits of mosaics without them being protected does make you worry about their preservation and upkeep. The signs ard explanations were also pretty all over the place compared to, say, Roman ruins in Italy or France. On the other, it gave me much more sense of what the towns and civilizations wouild have been like than standing at a correct distance in the British Museum, or even the Forum. Well worth it, as I say again....

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If anyone (well not anyone) is interested in Travel to Turkey PM me there are some nice people there who can give good travel advice.

 

If you're interested in Roman ruins three pages of photos from Djemila, Algeria. (I know this is a thread about Turkey, I just thought Alex might enjoy the photos of Djemila)

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1. Conduct the discussion in terms which everyone can understand, otherwise you might just as well e-mail among yourselves.

 

What it comes down to is whether or not you can make derogatory comments about aspects of life in places like Istanbul or, in my case, Mumbai-ie poorer or "developing" cities that are valid observations that you have made without other people getting upset and demanding that you condemn aspects of life in London or the USA as well.

 

I pointed out that in Mumbai the quality of life is seriously degraded by the noise pollution caused by thousands of taxi drivers blasting away on their horns unrelentingly and unnecessarily 24 hours a day. I said that it was a stupid thing to do because it served no purpose and life would be better for all if they didn't do it. In fact there have been several articles in the Mumbai press about this issue and it is discussed a a matter of civic interest on a regular basis.

 

However instead of agreeing that life in Mumbai WOULD be better if the drivers stopped blasting on their horns, people want to say things like "well life in London is not so hot either" or they want to infer that you're calling all Indians "stupid". For an example see Midbiaso's post above. I can only imagine that people do this because they have post colonial political corretness guilt about Westerners criticising poorer places so if you criticse those cities they want you to criticse Western cities in the same context.

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If anyone (well not anyone) is interested in Travel to Turkey PM me there are some nice people there who can give good travel advice.

 

If you're interested in Roman ruins three pages of photos from Djemila, Algeria. (I know this is a thread about Turkey, I just thought Alex might enjoy the photos of Djemila)

 

I'd not seen anything Djemila before - thanks, very interesting. It does look a lot like some of the Turkish Roman sites - Perge especially - both in terms of scale and preservation. Such huge towns, populations in the 10s of 1000s. I have heard the North African ruins are on a par with any really, although I'm yet to see them in the flesh maybe before too long. I've always had vauge Sheltering Sky fantasies of sitting on the edge of the desert wearing a white linen suit and writing music...

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so?

 

It's water off a duck's back to me personally but the problem is that attitudes that say you can't criticse devloping or poorer countries except in relative terms actually holds them back and is damaging to them.

 

I'll give you another example. In Mumbai all the Western tourists loved Chowpatty Beach. Unfortunately, however, it became a haven for crime, drugs, prostitution, child exploitation, squalor and unhygeinic food. The Mumbai authorities proposed cleaning it up, which meant banning loads of food vendors, lighting it properly, banning sleeping rough and driving out the "characters" which frequented it-basically changing its nature altogether

 

How Westerners and tourist organizations protested- "destroying the character of the city", "trying to Westernise the East", "wrecking one of the great aspects of the Bombay experience"were just some of the comments.

 

But lo-when the actual citizens of Mumbai were asked, they were absolutely and resolutely behind the clean up. And this clean up has improved the quality of life in that area for them.

 

You see whan Westerners protest about the "Westernisation" of these types of places, what they really mean is that they want to go on holiday and enjoy the filth and the crime and the vice etc as "part of the Mumbai experience" and then go back home and live in a place where they would be up in arms if any of those things were happenening outside their own front doors.

 

But if you point out how important it is for, say, Mumbai to take action to stop doing stupid things and to start doing things which will be more intelligent you get called a "bigot" and a "racist" by people.

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How Westerners and tourist organizations protested- "destroying the character of the city", "trying to Westernise the East", "wrecking one of the great aspects of the Bombay experience"were just some of the comments.

will be more intelligent you get called a "bigot" and a "racist" by people like Mdibiaso

 

The response of tourists in this example is the height of racism and condecension, in my opinion. They are treating the "locals" as exhibits in a cultural zoo, there for amusement and color. The residents, on the other hand, are trying to live better lives, cleaner, less bothersome, healthier lives.

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The response of tourists in this example is the height of racism and condecension, in my opinion. They are treating the "locals" as exhibits in a cultural zoo, there for amusement and color. The residents, on the other hand, are trying to live better lives, cleaner, less bothersome, healthier lives.

 

That happens a lot in Mexico. I go there often, and have many Mexican friends. The anger is palpable when they talk about norteamericanos (us) lamenting how this "fishing village" or that has been "spoiled."

 

Small thatched-roof huts along winding dirt footpaths through the jungle may be picturesque, but they don't hold a candle to an ugly cement block house and a real street when a hurricane blows through. We want to visit a sort of Disney "Mexico World," but then go back to our non-picturesque sturdy houses, air-conditioning, electricity, indoor plumbing, washer/driers, satellite/cable TV, paved roads, etc.

 

It's like we want all of Mexico to remain an inexpensive, nostalgic, picturesque, third-world country stuck, afoot or on cute little straw-hatted burros, in the 18th century just so we can visit it from time to time.

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Jaymes if it is anything like Lebanon (and for all I know it may well not be) it is more complicated that that, at least for someone like me who goes back and forth between the two worlds. There is some truly hideous cinderblock architecture all up and down the lebanese mountainside, and it bugs the hell out of me because the traditional architecture is sturdy, stone and gorgeous. This stiff just looks truly awful, it is simply a blight. Cinderblock & cement as used over there have the sole advantage of being extremely cheap, and while I don't begrudge someone a larger amount of space in which to live, I think one has a civic responsibility to make sure the place also looks good from the outside. The problem in Lebanon is that everyone pays a shitload of money for fancy carved living room furniture while the outside of the building remains unpainted cement, with trash everywhere. I think it should be possible to have something that is modern and functional that still looks good and maintains respect for the local culture. This type of attitude towards civic responsibility is a large part of why we had a 15-year civil war in the first place.

 

Having said that this is not a trait unique to the third world. It is precisely the mentality that allows crappy looking, cheaply-constructed strip malls to dominate an otherwise beautiful midwestern landscape.

 

Tuckerman, I'm pretty sure I have no colonial guilt but I do tend to get annoyed when people's main comment about the middle east is how much their (specifically) blonde girlfriend got harrassed over there. Especially if said anecdote is from over 30 years ago. Not that this is a good thing, but I am not at all blonde and would get harassed all the time in the ME if I were wearing clothing (I'm talking nikes and no headscarf) that is outside the norm for certain towns. The types of Middle Eastern men who hang out on street corners like to harass any woman who catches their attention, and do so because they have always been allowed to get away with it. And of course add to that the ME stereotype that western women have loose morals and might respond positively to such attention. Oddly enough, not all western women have loose morals and not all Middle Eastern men hang out on street corners. These are both lazy stereotypes.

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