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Tuckerman, I'm pretty sure I have no colonial guilt but I do tend to get annoyed when people's main comment about the middle east is how much their (specifically) blonde girlfriend got harrassed over there. Especially if said anecdote is from over 30 years ago.

 

The Middle East? ;) I was talking about Istanbul. 35 years ago. My comment was made in semi jest-go back and check the context-but the truth is that she DID suffer a great deal of sexual harassment.

 

Now that is NOT the same thing as me saying that every man in Istanbul is, or was, a sexual harasser. Right?

 

Jeez :lol:

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The Middle East? ;) I was talking about Istanbul. 30 years ago. My comment was made in semi jest-go back and check the context

 

Jeez :lol:

 

So did we decide istanbul was in the middle east or europe?

... Let's see, what part of istanbul were you in when all this happened? ;)

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Actually your comment about civic responsibility in the Lebanon is far more interesting, and goes to the heart of the conversation. There are times when civic leaders have to be pressurised to face up to meeting civic responsibilities. And this is more difficult in poorer and devloping countries where more people tend to get into positions of civic power via nepotism and corruption. So in order to get them to shift their arses to clean up the streets, collect the trash, mend the pavements etc, they have to be criticised and threatened because they won't do it if left to their own devices.

 

Often it will take outside Westen pressure and threats to business or tourist dollars and someone has to call it as it is. But if Westerners call it they are often called "racist" or whatever.

 

You know in Kenya, where my wife is from, there is a famine in the North of the country. People are literally starving to death because of the successive years of drought. Childern are dying of hunger and starvation related diseases.Yet there is plenty of food in Kenya. There is no reason whatsoever why people in the North of Kenya have to die of hunger, But the fucking idiotic and corrupt bastards in charge of that country are too corrupt and too stupid to arrange the correct programmes and the good denizens of the plentiful South are not nationally minded enough to put enough pressure on them to do so. My wife and I belong to a pressure group which aims to rectify this insane situation

 

I say this because it often takes Westerners to call the idiocy and incompetence evident in many countries for what it is. And if they and guilt ridden Westerners think we're "racist" for doing it, then so be it.

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Yes thankfully corruption and nepotism do not exist in the American system. ;)

 

You see,that is precisely the kind of idiotic comment that this whole conversation is about. I say that there is terrible corruption and incompetence in Kenya that is leading to masses of people starving to death. And instead of people saying "yes, it's fucking awful, what can be done" they tell you "well there is corruption in America too"

 

Well so what? What the fuck does that have to do with it? Why even make that linkeage? We're not talking about corruption in America, we're talking about corruption and incompetence in Kenya, or the Lebanon or wherever. The need to qualify every discussion about idiocy and corruption in the third world with the rider that "there is corruption in America too" is exactly the attitude that stymies any real discussion about these issues and only serves to assuage some kind of post colonialist guilt amongst those who feel that you can't criticise the way that poor or developing countries are being run without laborious qualification :lol:

 

BTW, I'm sure that this is all too political and will get deleted, so to anticipate: Mods please don't PM and ask ME to delete it. Just delete as you see fit. It's all fine by me. ;)

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"Work". What is "work"? Hit the delete button, how much "work" is that? :lol:

Actually that's a lot of work, and as a member who has declined publicly to share in that work it behoves you not to create it unnecessarily.

 

So as my first public function as an Admin ;) I am asking you to desist from further ventures into a clearly political topic. And I'm confident that Behemoth will observe similar restraint.

 

By all means discuss Istanbul and its food and its customs. The rest belongs elsewhere.

 

Thanks, people.

 

Macrosan

Member of the Admin-team

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Actually that's a lot of work, and as a member who has declined publicly to share in that work it behoves you not to create it unnecessarily.

 

So as my first public function as an Admin :lol: I am asking you to desist from further ventures into a clearly political topic. And I'm confident that Behemoth will observe similar restraint.

 

By all means discuss Istanbul and its food and its customs. The rest belongs elsewhere.

 

Thanks, people.

 

Macrosan

Member of the Admin-team

 

Macrosan, you're being a pompous arse.

 

But since I love you. I agree ;)

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[deleted stuff]

 

I guess this subject is inherently political, and should probably just be avoided altogether. I just wanted to point out that these types of statements are not annoying to those with colonial guilt alone, it's just that the post-colonized are tired of bringing them up all the time.

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I guess this subject is inherently political, and should probably just be avoided altogether.

Exactly right, Behemoth.

 

And in the same way that you "just wanted to point out ...", someone else will then also "just want to point out ..." and ... guess what ? We have a political discussion going on.

 

Now you've made your point, it would be really, really helpful if you would replace your whole post with just the part I quoted above. Please ? Otherwise, how can we judge who gets to have the last word on the subject ?

 

Thanks :lol:

 

Macrosan

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